2 lugs or 3?

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RickF
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2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Tue Aug 08, 2017 2:37 pm

I am sourcing the parts for my ultimate Hunter class silhouette rifle.

I will likely use a Stiller single-shot although a Turbo is a possibility. I am waffling on whether to go with the easier bolt-lift 90-degree 2-lug action or the stiffer but shorter bolt-lift 3-lug. For those who have experience with both, any thoughts?

Am also considering a right bolt, left port but will likely go right for both.

Thoughts? And thanks for your time.

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Doodaddy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 6:15 am

It's a moot point really. Considering that you're looking at single shot rifles, you're going to have to rest the rifle in some manner in order to free a hand to load it so any time saver or ease gained by a shorter bolt throw is negated. Opt for the easier bolt lift to make the process between shots simpler.

The three lug debate over on the BR forums is splitting hairs over a marginal accuracy gain that may or may not even exist. Even if the accuracy advantage is indeed tangible, it's so small that it wouldn't matter in a free hand shooting discipline.

I use a RB/LP Stiller 2500X. If you're a right handed shooter, you're on the left side of that gun so having the loading port on the right side is an unnecessary complication as you'll either lean over the rifle or twist it to face you. Clearly it's preference, but you want your mind on shooting and not fumbling with loading.
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Jerry G
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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Jerry G » Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 am

Keep in mind your rifle accuracy is limited by the ammo that is available. It's the Indian, not the arrow.

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by snipes » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:35 am

Jerry G wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 7:59 am
Keep in mind your rifle accuracy is limited by the ammo that is available. It's the Indian, not the arrow.
Wouldn't that make it "It's the arrow, not the indian"?

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:55 am

Thanks for the input.

I realize there is no tangible accuracy difference in 2 lugs vs 3. This is strictly a decision based on usability / ergonomics. Which is slicker and smoother to use...

Thanks.

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Doodaddy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:10 am

RickF wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:55 am
Thanks for the input.

I realize there is no tangible accuracy difference in 2 lugs vs 3. This is strictly a decision based on usability / ergonomics. Which is slicker and smoother to use...

Thanks.
My 2500X feel smooth as butter.

What is the rest of your build looking like?
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RickF
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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:30 am

My present rifle is a 54.18 ms-r action with Benchmark #5 23", stocked by Steve Wooster in his Pharr stock. 25X Leupold.

This rifle will be identical other than action. Benchmark 2-groove #5 and Steve's Pharr stock. It will get a Bix'N Andy 2-stage trigger. As much as anything it gives me a chance to play with balance to tweak what I already have. But I also want to go to a single shot.

I have pretty much decided on left port, just coin flipping between 2 lug 2500X and 3 lug trident. You DO have me leaning 2500X! :-)

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Doodaddy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 10:55 am

I also used Benchmark for my barrel, but I specified my own contour. It's not tremendously different than the #5 contour. Ended up a hair below 3lbs at the crowned length.

You must know of some magic trick that I don't know of, because I don't think the Bix'N'Andy can get up to two lbs. That was the first trigger I looked at using and Russ at SPF suggested it as well, but it got rejected because of that requirement. I ended up going with the Jackson two stage with safety. It took some tweaking, but it's a beautiful feeling trigger now. I would also keep the Tubb trigger in mind. I haven't tried it before, but I can't seem to find a bad thing said about it. If you can get the B&A up that high, I would imagine that to be an excellent option.

Give Russ a call and talk to him about what you're wanting and see what he says between the two actions. You don't have a bad option on the table so you can't lose.
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RickF
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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:15 am

I spoke to Jerry yesterday, and am waiting on a call back from Dan or Paul at KSS.

Re the Bix'N Andy, they have two 2-stage triggers now that can get to two pounds. First, the $495 marksman which also has an under safety lever. That is the path of least resistance but BIG $! The second, a new trigger, is the TacSport which at $255 has two independently adjustable stages. Sounds perfect, except it has the top safety which mandates slabbing the right-rear of the action. One of those will go on it.



UPDATE: Just pulled the trigger on a RB-LP 2500X. It's only money ... right? ;-)

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Doodaddy » Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:31 am

RickF wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 11:15 am
I spoke to Jerry yesterday, and am waiting on a call back from Dan or Paul at KSS.

Re the Bix'N Andy, they have two 2-stage triggers now that can get to two pounds. First, the $295 marksman which also has an under safety lever. That is the PATH of least resistance but BIG $! The second, a new trigger, is the TacSport which at $255 has two independently adjustable stages. Sounds perfect, except it has the top safety which mandates slabbing the right-rear of the action. One of those will go on it.



UPDATE: Just pulled the trigger on a RB-LP 2500X. It's only money ... right? ;-)
Independently adjustable stages is a requirement for me. 1lb/1lb is nice, but I want a lighter second stage. I have a top safety with the Jackson with no modifications to the action, but obviously the stock had to be relieved to allow it. The Jackson wasn't perfect out of the box, nor was it the two times I sent it back. I ended up getting it straightened out myself and it's excellent now, but it was a journey.

That Tacsport looks perfect, but that safety lever is a bit straighter than I'd like. You're right, it might require some action work. I wonder if they would provide a difference lever? One that is a bit more flexible? Hm.

Dan is perfect to work with over at KSS. Are you having the barrel work done through him as well?
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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:20 pm

Good to know that no action slabbing was required! A guy can always heat and tweak the safety lever if required.

I agree on stages, thinking a 22-24 oz first stage and 10 or so on the second.

I have had three different Jackson triggers. The first was one of the originals from New Zealand, had it on an F Class rifle. It was absolute perfection! After that I had two of the Cincinnati triggers, fought with them and never could get the creep out. One went back and was still creepy. They went away.

Steve Wooster's metal guy will do the barrel work. One shop that way, easier to control just to send Steve the action, barrel and trigger. He takes care of the rest. Great guy to deal with.

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Emietenkorte » Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:53 pm

Just curious, what lead you to the decision of a right bolt left port? My understanding is you are right handed? Wouldn't that mean a lot of hand switching? Just wondering what your thoughts were on it.

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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by Doodaddy » Thu Aug 10, 2017 6:41 am

RickF wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 1:20 pm
Good to know that no action slabbing was required! A guy can always heat and tweak the safety lever if required.

I agree on stages, thinking a 22-24 oz first stage and 10 or so on the second.

I have had three different Jackson triggers. The first was one of the originals from New Zealand, had it on an F Class rifle. It was absolute perfection! After that I had two of the Cincinnati triggers, fought with them and never could get the creep out. One went back and was still creepy. They went away.

Steve Wooster's metal guy will do the barrel work. One shop that way, easier to control just to send Steve the action, barrel and trigger. He takes care of the rest. Great guy to deal with.

I have mine around 25-26oz. I may change it again, but I'm inclined to leave it alone now that I have it feeling right.

Can't fault you for keeping it in one shop. Had all of my components been available at the same time, I would have sent it all to Dan, but I just got the barreled action from him and assembled the rest myself.
Emietenkorte wrote:
Wed Aug 09, 2017 8:53 pm
Just curious, what lead you to the decision of a right bolt left port? My understanding is you are right handed? Wouldn't that mean a lot of hand switching? Just wondering what your thoughts were on it.
I can't speak for Rick, but I chose the RBLP configuration is because the loading process is easier for me that way. As a right handed shooter, your body is on the left side of the gun. With the port being on the left, you're looking right at it. If it were on the right, you're either craning your body over it or rotating the gun for it to be visible which can cause an angle adding difficulty of keeping the cartridge on the loading ramp. I wasn't inclined to start loading blind either. That's just me.

My shot to shot process:
  • Fire the shot
  • Likely miss
  • Eject and leave action open
  • Rest the barrel on the bench/pedestal
At this point my right hand hasn't left the grip area other than to work the bolt.
  • Reach for ammo with my left hand
  • Place cartridge on the loading ramp (it's a very wide and easy loading ramp)
  • Close the bolt with my right hand
  • Shoulder the rifle
I've seen RBRP single shot shooters do just fine too. I didn't pick this orientation to say that they're wrong. I just personally like my way better. It takes a bit more time than a standard repeating bolt action, but that's half the reason I went with single shot over repeater (the rest being more bedding area and a more rigid action). It forces me to slow down, breathe, rest my arms as the rifle isn't 100% by me during reloading, and mentally reset for the next shot. In fact, I was always apprehensive about a single shot in a timed shooting discipline until I watched a shooter do it several times with no issue.
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RickF
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Re: 2 lugs or 3?

Post by RickF » Thu Aug 10, 2017 8:05 am

C’mon Erich, after spotting for me last week and undoubtedly thinking “Is there no beginning to this man’s talents?” you know I am right handed! ;-)

The guy who is not Danny Hatch nailed it. Between shots, I rest the rifle with the barrel on the bench or preferably sandbag on the bench, with the stock hugged between my inner forearm and waist, my right hand on the grip. With a repeater, I have already worked the bolt and loaded the next round into the chamber.

With a single shot, and with a left port, I will fire my shot right handed, and on the way down open the bolt and eject the empty. The rifle goes on the bag supported as above. Looking down, the left port is pointing at me, so with my left hand I drop the next round in the port and start it into the chamber with a finger so it is aligned and so it stays put.

Then I take a couple breaths and mutter at my incompetence. Then the left hand goes under the belly of the rifle, the right hand snicks the bolt closed and goes back onto the grip, and the rifle comes up to try again.

It’s actually no more movements to load the left ported rifle, and involves significantly less contortions of either my body or manipulations of the rifle to do so. I think!

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