Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

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Ojaileveraction
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Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by Ojaileveraction » Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:40 pm

Is there a match for the 17 rimfires 17HMR and/or 17WSM?
Like half size targets set at 250, 187, 150 and 100 meters.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by acorneau » Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:26 am

Ojaileveraction wrote:
Tue Nov 21, 2017 9:40 pm
Is there a match for the 17 rimfires 17HMR and/or 17WSM?
Like half size targets set at 250, 187, 150 and 100 meters.
Not to my knowledge.

I would guess that if you've got a bunch of guys with these rifles already and they are up for shooting a standing/off-hand game then you could probably get a match going.

I've read many reviews of the 17WSM saying the accuracy was mediocre to disappointing, so I doubt it would be a good candidate for this sport.

If you try it out make sure to report back here to let us know how it goes.
Allen Corneau

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by Ojaileveraction » Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:19 pm

I think we can agree that 17HMR has an excellent reputation for accuracy. So shooting the HUMMER against 22lr in Smallbore just would not be fair of course. So I thought it would be fun to work out some distances.
May 3/8s size targets at
187
140
112
75
acorneau wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:26 am
I've read many reviews of the 17WSM saying the accuracy was mediocre to disappointing, so I doubt it would be a good candidate for this sport.
If you try it out make sure to report back here to let us know how it goes.
Yes, but I have also read many reviews about 17wsm's excellent accuracy in the right rifle and I've get sub MOA accuracy with my heavy barrel Bmag.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by snipes » Mon Nov 27, 2017 1:44 pm

Ojaileveraction wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 1:19 pm
I think we can agree that 17HMR has an excellent reputation for accuracy. So shooting the HUMMER against 22lr in Smallbore just would not be fair of course. So I thought it would be fun to work out some distances.
May 3/8s size targets at
187
140
112
75
acorneau wrote:
Wed Nov 22, 2017 5:26 am
I've read many reviews of the 17WSM saying the accuracy was mediocre to disappointing, so I doubt it would be a good candidate for this sport.
If you try it out make sure to report back here to let us know how it goes.
Yes, but I have also read many reviews about 17wsm's excellent accuracy in the right rifle and I've get sub MOA accuracy with my heavy barrel Bmag.
Umm, I guess I'll be the disagreeable one. The round has an excellent reputation, but accuracy isn't it.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by snipes » Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm

My previous post may have been a bit snarky so I'll elaborate. The HMR is known for its very flat trajectory in the sweet spot (25-125 yds) and its kinetic energy when hitting those critters at distance. Accuracy in comparison to match grade 22lr isn't comparable. There isn't even any match grade 17 rimfire ammo made.

Now, to the spirit of your original post and your proposed distances I like it. The smallbore crowd isn't going to stand by and let those HMR rounds tear up their steel targets or stands though.
I do agree that the flat trajectory of the round wouldn't make it a very fair comparison in the 40-100 meter competition as you wouldn't have to make any scope adjustments throughout the competition.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by Jason » Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:38 pm

snipes wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm
Accuracy in comparison to match grade 22lr isn't comparable. There isn't even any match grade 17 rimfire ammo made.
I have owned several 17HMR rifles and have shot many others. Due to the cartridge design, it is a lot easier to get good accuracy out of it than the very old 22LR cartridge design. At least half of them have been able to produce 5-shot groups under an inch center-to-center at 100 yards consistently (didn't often try at 100 meters since they weren't silhouette rifles) using whatever CCI or Hornady ammo was on hand. These are <$500 rifles, not Anschutz target rifles. When I say consistently, I don't mean that those were the best groups out of multiple groups shot. I mean every group. If you combine that with an Anschutz trigger and allow it to be shot, by the next nationals there wouldn't be a single 22lr on the line shot by a top-20 shooter in master class. Having the bullet get out of the barrel faster due to velocity and have less wind drift and less drop to adjust in addition to having a cartridge that is very easy to get great accuracy for would make the 22lr instantly obsolete.

If I spend $2000+ on a custom smallbore silhouette rifle, I'm happy if I can find a lot of ammo that will make it able to put 10 shots within an inch or less at 100 meters consistently. If I spend the same amount on a custom high power silhouette rifle, it better be able to put the same number of shots within a half inch due to the better cartridge design. The 17HMR cartridge design is closer to the centerfire rifle cartridge design, with aerodynamic jacketed bullets held in by neck tension on the jacket instead of the brass case crimped around the heel of the lead, round-nosed, decidedly non-aerodynamic 22lr bullet. That's why it's inherently more accurate, and you can stop by Cabela's and pick up a modern 17HMR bolt action rifle that will shoot tiny groups just like you can pick up a modern 223 Rem bolt action rifle off the shelf now that will shoot tiny groups.

I don't think your posts seemed snarky. They did seem to show a lack of experience shooting 17HMR rifles, though.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by snipes » Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:36 am

Jason wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 11:38 pm
snipes wrote:
Mon Nov 27, 2017 2:03 pm
Accuracy in comparison to match grade 22lr isn't comparable. There isn't even any match grade 17 rimfire ammo made.
I have owned several 17HMR rifles and have shot many others. Due to the cartridge design, it is a lot easier to get good accuracy out of it than the very old 22LR cartridge design. At least half of them have been able to produce 5-shot groups under an inch center-to-center at 100 yards consistently (didn't often try at 100 meters since they weren't silhouette rifles) using whatever CCI or Hornady ammo was on hand. These are <$500 rifles, not Anschutz target rifles. When I say consistently, I don't mean that those were the best groups out of multiple groups shot. I mean every group. If you combine that with an Anschutz trigger and allow it to be shot, by the next nationals there wouldn't be a single 22lr on the line shot by a top-20 shooter in master class. Having the bullet get out of the barrel faster due to velocity and have less wind drift and less drop to adjust in addition to having a cartridge that is very easy to get great accuracy for would make the 22lr instantly obsolete.

If I spend $2000+ on a custom smallbore silhouette rifle, I'm happy if I can find a lot of ammo that will make it able to put 10 shots within an inch or less at 100 meters consistently. If I spend the same amount on a custom high power silhouette rifle, it better be able to put the same number of shots within a half inch due to the better cartridge design. The 17HMR cartridge design is closer to the centerfire rifle cartridge design, with aerodynamic jacketed bullets held in by neck tension on the jacket instead of the brass case crimped around the heel of the lead, round-nosed, decidedly non-aerodynamic 22lr bullet. That's why it's inherently more accurate, and you can stop by Cabela's and pick up a modern 17HMR bolt action rifle that will shoot tiny groups just like you can pick up a modern 223 Rem bolt action rifle off the shelf now that will shoot tiny groups.

I don't think your posts seemed snarky. They did seem to show a lack of experience shooting 17HMR rifles, though.
Before I respond further I want to make sure I understand your statements above in bold. Are you shooting consistent sub MOA groups in a supported position or is this all off hand? I recognize there are some very good / even world class silhouette shooters here so I won't make any assumptions.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by acorneau » Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:01 am

To bring this back around a bit...

If I was wanting to start a 17HMR match I would keep things simple, just double the distances from smallbore (80m, 120m, 155m, 200m) and double the size of the SB animals (2/5's scale). You could also do 80-200 yards and reduce the animals by the appropriate amount.

Using an online ballistics calculator I found out an 80m zero yields a drop of ~7 MOA at 200m. A 10mph crosswind would need ~9 MOA of holdover at 200m. Not sure how that lines up with high-power silhouette but it sounds manageable yet still challenging enough.

You could easily print out some scaled paper targets and set them out at distances to give the whole thing a try. If you do please let us know how it goes.
Allen Corneau

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by Jason » Tue Nov 28, 2017 1:11 pm

snipes wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:36 am
Before I respond further I want to make sure I understand your statements above in bold. Are you shooting consistent sub MOA groups in a supported position or is this all off hand? I recognize there are some very good / even world class silhouette shooters here so I won't make any assumptions.
There are no shooters in the world who shoot offhand sub MOA groups every time. There are indeed some world class shooters here, but I am not one of them. I am mid-master class, and only rarely shoot higher than the 37/40 that I shot in the last match that I shot a bit over a week ago, which happened to be a smallbore hunter silhouette match. I'm specifically addressing rifles and cartridges here, which are tested off rests. My usual testing is done off of my benchrest gear that I used before moving from benchrest to silhouette competitions.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by snipes » Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:47 pm

In the spirit of Allan's post bringing it back to the OPs question I'm going to drop the disagreement with Jason after this, but I stand by my original statement of the 17HMR round is not an inherently accurate round when compared to match grade 22lr ammo. Just look at the chrono spread for the "top shelf" HMR ammo vs. something like a Center X etc. Is that as important for Silhouette like it would be in other disciplines? Doubtful, but that doesn't change the facts.
I also shoot ~MOA groups with my $300 93R prone off a bipod, but I wouldn't expect that to drastically improve with a $2500 edition as I'm still limited by the mass produced ammo, and unlike centerfire, people aren't hand loading rimfire ammo.

Oh and I'm still working on breaking 25 in SB silhouette.

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Re: Is there a 17 Rimfire Silhouettt?

Post by Ojaileveraction » Thu Nov 30, 2017 9:38 pm

acorneau wrote:
Tue Nov 28, 2017 9:01 am
To bring this back around a bit...

If I was wanting to start a 17HMR match I would keep things simple, just double the distances from smallbore (80m, 120m, 155m, 200m) and double the size of the SB animals (2/5's scale). You could also do 80-200 yards and reduce the animals by the appropriate amount.

Using an online ballistics calculator I found out an 80m zero yields a drop of ~7 MOA at 200m. A 10mph crosswind would need ~9 MOA of holdover at 200m. Not sure how that lines up with high-power silhouette but it sounds manageable yet still challenging enough.

You could easily print out some scaled paper targets and set them out at distances to give the whole thing a try. If you do please let us know how it goes.
3/8 size I think would be Ideal for a shoot like this. Target damage is a big consideration. The club has a good inventory of half size that are used in a Long range bench rest silhouette
I could use the existing rails for Cowboy lever action 75 meter, 100 meter, 150 meter and 200 meter. Or just set them up at end of the 500 meter range and have everyone move for each stage like Long Range is shot.
I will have to experiment for target damage.

Also, No snarkyness taken. Very interesting comparison of the 17hmr and 22lr. Never had it explained that way. Makes sense.
There is no match ammo for 17hmr because there are no matches for 17hmr. That is something I thought about in the past.
I appreciate everyones' input.

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