National Championship Survey

This is what we do.
glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring »

If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got.

I see posts all the time about " What can we do to get more numbers in Silhouette?" and when someone makes suggestions or thinks of a change to do that, it's attacked by the " old guard". Change is good..for shooting.
I hear all the excuses " The sport is just too hard" The NRA screws things up....they go on and on.

Why in the hell are the other shooting sports, even the damn boring ones in my eyes, doing SO much better on numbers ?

Bianchi Cup- ( action pistol national championship ) Over 200 shooters
Cowboy lever Action National Championships - 159 shooters
Indoor Position smallbore nationals -269 competitors
International Air pistol Nationals _ 250 competitors

Highpower Rifle Silhouette -60...there will be 58 next year as far as we're concerned.
Highpower hunter rifle Silhouette - 55...53 next year as far as we're concerned.
Smallbore Silhouette numbers were 97 and 85...95 and 83 next year if anyone is counting on us.

Even our Monthly IPSC matches at the Oklahoma city Gun club can top some of these numbers.

Cowboy SASS type events usually number in the HUNDREDS at our range.

I REALLY liked Highpower silhouette, but I shot it for hunting practice. That, I guess, was frowned upon.
So Now I can honestly say , to any of my hunting buds, " Don't try Scoped Rifle silhouette, it's apparently not good hunting practice." AND I'll quote the " experts" that typed that.

Numbers don't lie. If you're happy with the numbers trying Scope Silhouette then keep on doing what you do.

We certainly won't be doing it again...even though we bought all the equipment , practiced for it all winter and will even be at the whittington center during these contests ( for now anyway ) we REALLY liked the Lever action Silhouette shoots much, much better and most of them welcome hunters.
I
Just Be Nice **==
User avatar
dustinflint
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1519
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by dustinflint »

glen ring wrote:I REALLY liked Highpower silhouette, but I shot it for hunting practice. That, I guess, was frowned upon.
So Now I can honestly say , to any of my hunting buds, " Don't try Scoped Rifle silhouette, it's apparently not good hunting practice." AND I'll quote the " experts" that typed that.
Glenn, you have misquoted me several times regarding what I said about the purpose of silhouette not being practice for hunting. You either did not understand my meaning or are intentionally twisting what I said. I know you and I believe that you are too intelligent to have misunderstood me so I get the feeling that you are intentionally misquoting me about this.

I never said that hunters were not welcome to shoot silhouette or that shooting silhouette to practice for hunting was "frowned upon" or anything like that. Almost every silhouette shooter I know is also a hunter. I also never said that shooting silhouette was not good practice for hunting. Anyone with a brain knows that silhouette will make a shooter a better shot which will likely make them a better hunter.

When I said that the purpose of Silhouette is not "practice for hunting", I said it in a discussion about EQUIPMENT and the ORIGIN OF THE SPORT.

When you returned from nationals in Raton this year, you took to this forum and went on and on... and on and on and on and on and on... about your disdain for the equipment and vests that were on the line at the smallbore and high-power matches.
You said that you thought new shooters would be more likely to start the game if the rules limited us to basic equipment. I disagreed and in doing so made the comment that silhouette is a competitive shooting sport and not "hunting practice."

Let's look at exactly what was said:
dustinflint wrote:
glen ring wrote:I think if the NRA would change the rules so that folks could buy a cheaper rifle to compete with in a stock class the numbers would increase. Maybe have a MSRP as a limit to a rifle with no modifications and even a scope power limit.
This has been tried before (originally with the hunter rifle and with IHMSA and with air rifle, etc.) It doesn't work. We don't need more rules. Rules are not going to increase shooter numbers. We dot need more "classes" so that shooters have to buy more equipment. If another class is added all we're going to get is existing shooters going out to buy stock guns with scopes that meet the rules which adds more expense and is another freaking rifle to carry.

[removed for brevity]

Silhouette is a COMPETITIVE shooting SPORT. It is a competition. It is not "hunting practice" or shooting instruction or anything like that. If a new shooter is interested in getting into the game, he/she is not going to show up to a match and see some nice equipment and get intimated and go home. If he/she does that, there was no real interest there to begin with. A new shooter interested in getting started is going to talk to experienced shooters and any experienced shooter is going to tell the new shooter that a $400 CZ (and other nice rifles like Kimber, Savage, etc.) with a decent scope is PLENTY of rifle to get started with and just fine to shoot forever if they don't want to buy a more expensive rifle or build whatever they want. Hayley Kunzli, who is a high master shooter, won the afternoon match at the Louisiana Smallbore state championship yesterday with a CZ452. Any new shooter that has a couple minutes exposure to an experienced shooter is going to figure this out quickly.
In response to that, you wrote:
glen ring wrote:Silhouette was intended as practice for a hunting sport...that's why the targets are shaped like animals. Maybe the targets should be shaped like...small circles.
And in response, Greg Sullivan wrote:
GTS wrote:That being said, this is also the second time you refer to the sport of metallic silhouette shooting as being practice for hunting. In that, you are way off base and should probably do a little research on the topic. The reason the targets are shaped like animals is because those were the live domesticated animals that they used to shoot at in Mexico where this sport originated. Silhouette has always been about who was the better shot from the dimmest writings of a soldier in Poncho Villas army describing an argument between two soldiers about who was the best shot, to the fiestas where the live animals were shot then later cooked and consumed, to the metallic silhouette matches of today. It was written that those first two soldiers settled the disagreement by seeing who could kill a steer tethered at an unknown distance, which would later become dinner for the troops. Silhouette shooting was about gambling, drinking, eating and having a grand old time, but it certainly wasn't about practicing for hunting, and as I mentioned, it has always, and will always, be about who is the best shot on a given day.
As you can see no one is trying to exclude hunters or make them feel unwelcome and no one ever said that silhouette shooting is not good practice for hunting. We were merely saying that silhouette is first and foremost a competitive shooting sport and that the original intent of silhouette was not to practice hunting.

Obviously, shooters can shoot silhouette for any reason that they want to - it strictly for competition, or hunting practice, or getting ready for a zombie apocalypse; whatever they like is good with us and we welcome shooters no matter why they like to shoot!

You can continue to argue against the scoped silhouette sports and continue to prod and jab at scoped silhouette shooters but please stop misquoting me about silhouette as it relates to hunting.

Dustin
glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring »

Dustin
I don't believe I mentioned your name in the above and I most certainly wouldn't want to misquote you but now that we're here..
Please straighten me out on who said " Silhouette is not practice for hunting" and "Any Goober can shoot a deer at 75 yards.' I think I read it somewhere in a prior post.

I think I'd be making a real leap to interpret that as " Welcome to our sport, it's fun and will make you a much better harvester of game because we know that all of you ethical hunters would welcome sharpening your skills.

I took that to mean what it says...and if the delivery wasn't referring to me, as a hunter, being a "goober" then what was the purpose of the manner that it was delivered I wonder ?

What is a "goober' anyhow. I thought that was a peanut.

My sole intent was to increase numbers of shooters and make Silhouette make sense to a hunter that might want to try it for sharpening his/her skills.

" Silhouette isn't practice for hunting" ..to me, sends a message that would not welcome a hunter , with a rifle, to this sport.
It certainly doesn't make me feel welcome, and I am a crusty old guy.

I have had ideas to try to help, and feel properly chastised and even ridiculed for voicing them.



Good luck
Just Be Nice **==
User avatar
dustinflint
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1519
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by dustinflint »

I explained that comment after I made it and even apologized for it. You can go back and read both. I think everyone understood what I meant after that and the only person that keeps bringing it up (in every single post!) is you. I understand that some people get very offended very easily and we all have to be very careful what we say lest we offend one of those people. If you are one of those people, I did not mean to offend you. I will say it again in the most politically correct language I can: I have no issue with hunters or anyone shooting silhouette to practice for hunting.

So that no one is further offended by my reckless language and to make my position perfectly clear from now until the end of eternity, here is my equal opportunity statement:

Dustinflint is an equal opportunity and affirmative action shooter committed to shooting with a diverse, broadly experienced group of shooters. Women, minorities, people with disabilities, veterans and mostly hunters are strongly encouraged to shoot. In furtherance of his commitment to fostering a shooting environment that welcomes and embraces diversity, dustinflint does not discriminate on the basis of race, color, creed, religion, national origin, sex (including pregnancy and parenting status), disability, age, veteran status, sexual orientation, gender identity or expression, marital status, political party or beliefs, genetic information or other hobbies in his welcoming of shooters to matches or to the shooting sports, including silhouette (even with scopes), in general.

Dustin
glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring »

hahahahaha Dustin, you may be related to me somehow.
I love you man. have a good week.
Just Be Nice **==
User avatar
Ghostofwar
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Aiken, SC

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Ghostofwar »

Sounds to me like Glen is just a cranky old fart that got his feelings hurt.

I have nothing against Glen, but I refused to be politically correct. :D Dustin is an ambassador for the sport and I can understand if he wants to keep things civil around here.

All joking aside, the issue of bringing in new shooters is a complex problem, but there is hope. My home club has gotten a good number of new shooters in the last year or so. Some keep coming back, others fade away. Many of the new shooters are using the Ruger American Rimfire to get started and they are doing very well with them. So, the equipment race isn't a problem around here.

I've never heard anyone at any match ever say that they were shooting silhouette as practice for hunting.

Silhouette is hard and I believe that probably discourages more people than anything. A great score of 30 (for most people) is only a 75% hit rate. It can be really frustrating to shoot a match and leave a lot of those little animals standing. On the other hand, the draw of the sport for most people is to see those little buggers go flying.

So, back to the Nationals. It is a good point that many other shooting sports have their Nationals at the same location every year. Maybe things will come together and the Nationals in Raton will start to draw many more shooters. It would also be great to see the other large ranges around the country host big regional matches to draw in the people that can't travel as far to the Nationals. Dustin and everyone in Winnsboro does a great job when they host their big match. We need more of these matches around the country.
glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring »

Ghoastofwar
I hope the numbers of silhouette shooters grow. I really like the sport from air pistol to Highpower Silhouette.
I LOVE a good argument /debate. My former profession allowed me to " bump heads" with some VERY talented criminal defense Attorneys.

We could have at each other in front of a jury, but go to lunch and laugh while we exchanged notes. That is the true sign of a professional.

My goading and challenges to the young bucks is just an effort to get them to show up and compete. Some take the bait and show. We usually become friends. Some never show...so I never get the chance to meet them.

Come to one of our Lever Gun matches sometime. You'll find I'm far from a cranky old fart...maybe old but certainly not cranky.

I just spent four days camping out at our range putting on a regional Lever Gun Match. I am tired . Goodnight.
Just Be Nice **==
User avatar
Ghostofwar
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 313
Joined: Fri Jul 18, 2008 11:20 am
Location: Aiken, SC

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Ghostofwar »

Glen, I guess you could say I'm one of the "young bucks." I'm only 31 but I've been shooting silhouette somewhere between 15-20 years with a few long breaks in there during my time in the Corps. My only problem with getting to more matches is that I work an odd schedule that requires me to work a lot of weekends. I've got the money, just not the time.

My home range is expanding the rifle range out to 200 meters. Once it is complete, we are going to try to get some lever gun silhouette matches going. Hopefully it works out. I'd love to shoot some and see how I like it.
glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring »

Ghostofwar
The buddy that asked me to try Lever Gun Silhouette is a Marine Recon Sniper who was between trips across the big pond.

He said it was a lot of fun and , although it sounded boring to me , My first match was at the Nationals.
The people really impressed me.
My wife had never been a firearm's competitor but she has watched me shoot IPSC matches and didn't want any of that.
I assured her the folks were WAY different and after her first match she was hooked.
She became our Match Director ( she's VERY organized ) and this was the third Regional match she organized.

I have competed for most of my adult life and when that young Marine and I get together on the range it's one challenge after another. CLA guns out to the 500 meter rams is a common place we have fun.

I LOVE to challenge my young , VERY competitive buds to come beat me and I love to challenge the cranky old buds also. One of them won our regional . He's a mere 74 years old.

Build that 200 meter CLA range , have fun matches and we will travel from Oklahoma to your range to shoot. I know the money limitations thing. I'm a retired Public Servant and pretty darn far from being well off. That's one of the reasons that I push for a stock gun class and another reason I LOVE cla matches. I drool over pics of super accurate silhouette rifles as much as the next guy, but I KNOW I'll never be able to throw down $3000.00 for that dream rifle.

Come shoot lever gun with us sometime . We're a really fun group of guys and gals that cut up all the time and you'd never guess we all are twice your age.
Just Be Nice **==
User avatar
DavidABQ
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1818
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by DavidABQ »

I hope Barry doesn't leave the NRA anyover this survey. I think he a better match director than Greg Connor.

I am curious to see what comes out of the meeting in November.
User avatar
BrentD
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by BrentD »

Elsewhere on the net it is being claimed that Barry is no longer an NRA employee. Beware what comes next.

I had no problem with Barry whatsoever, until this year. Not sure what the hell the NRA was thinking.
User avatar
Tlee
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 679
Joined: Wed Feb 21, 2007 9:55 am
Location: Where Bob Wills is still the King
Contact:

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Tlee »

BrentD wrote:Elsewhere on the net it is being claimed that Barry is no longer an NRA employee. Beware what comes next.

I had no problem with Barry whatsoever, until this year. Not sure what the hell the NRA was thinking.
There it is...
User avatar
BrentD
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 597
Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by BrentD »

Tlee wrote:
BrentD wrote:Elsewhere on the net it is being claimed that Barry is no longer an NRA employee. Beware what comes next.

I had no problem with Barry whatsoever, until this year. Not sure what the hell the NRA was thinking.
There it is...
There is what?
User avatar
Jason
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 3002
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
Location: Snohomish, WA

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Jason »

His LinkedIn profile still says "Silhouette Program Coordinator" so any change must be new enough to not have made it to that yet.

https://www.linkedin.com/in/barry-ranney-82456831
User avatar
DavidABQ
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1818
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:33 pm

Re: National Championship Survey

Post by DavidABQ »

I had a dream last night that Barry quit the NRA and Greg Connor did away with the online registration and e-mail for the Nationals next year.
Post Reply