National Championship Survey

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Taps
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Taps » Sun Sep 11, 2016 3:40 pm

So the pro-Ridgeway crowd won't travel west to the middle of the country to shoot at Raton, but you expect folks from the west coast to travel east? If you don't want to loose them , participate at Raton.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by cslcAl » Sun Sep 11, 2016 4:09 pm

glen ring wrote:That's it then. Since the NRA silhouette department doesn't suit some folks on here ( we like them all just fine by the way ) Time for the complainers to roll up their sleeves and take over. YOU be the one that schedules the range space, target setters etc. Now, who's up to the task ??
Glen, I can answer that question. The Ridgway Rifle Club. When the nationals are in Pennsylvania, the Ridgway crew handles all you've mentioned. Plus, secures adequate range officers, obtains lots of door prizes, hosts a free dinner one night of each championship, maintains the targets during the match, provides camping facilities, coordinates daily media coverage, ect.

The NRA staff has to do all the work at the Whittington Center bcause there is no large group of members there to handle these duties.

Look, we both shoot, we both run local and regional matches. We are very passionate about our sport. That's the difference between going to Raton every year till it dies from lack of participation and alternating with Ridgway or some other club. No one at the Whittington Center (Glenda aside) is passionate about our sport. They are a business. Follow the money, that's what this is all about.

The gentleman who informed us of this move at Raton is a NRA board member and a Whittington Center board member. Take a minute and think about that.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by hugh » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:51 pm

Taps wrote:So the pro-Ridgeway crowd won't travel west to the middle of the country to shoot at Raton, but you expect folks from the west coast to travel east? If you don't want to loose them , participate at Raton.

How about addressing this? It true, the Ridgeway crowd does NOT travel (with the exception of Al) so why Ridgeway? Why not Baton Rouge? Missouri? Benton? Arizona? ElPaso? All could do it. I bet Dave Bonner and crew could do a bang up job. I say spread it around. And I'd like to see more support from the Ridgeway shooters at other matches.

Count the numbers in the match results. you'll see.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Ferret Master » Sun Sep 11, 2016 5:53 pm

Taps
We have enough to keep the sport going in the east, it is the Raton Crowd that needs to get their attendance up. We are not asking you to come east. I can attend the Nationals at Ridgway using only one weeks vacation. If were to go to Raton I would have to use at least two weeks vacation plus recovery time from all the driving and triple my cost. I have been to Raton several times ended up shooting a swingers more than once over the years.
Better start recruiting shooters now from the west if you want to keep the sport alive. Remember the magic number already stated by the NRA 50, . It has been used to end Hunters Pistol
It will be a shame if the Raton Shooters let the sport die for everyone.
I was called out by a member for not including Phoenix in the mix. I was there and would not got back. We complained about the heat and wind for a reason. I am sure if I lived there I would be acclimated to the conditions but I would estimate that 90% of our shooters are not.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Ghostofwar » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:12 pm

I'm glad to see that there is a lot of discussion about the future of the Nationals. That shows that people care enough to voice their opinion. The next step is to take action to make things happen.

Here is how I look at it. I would much rather see the Nationals move around the country. I would like to go to Raton for the Nationals at least once, just to see the range and to say I've been there and done that. However...

I much more likely to drive to a big silhouette match than to fly. Even if the drive is 12 or 14 hours. Driving allows me to take as many rifles and as much equipment as I feel like I need. Flying with a firearm is much more of a hassle and more expensive. Flying means taking less stuff as well as getting a rental car. Then what if your rifle gets lost by the airline? Lots more can go wrong.

I plan on going to Raton at least once, but it will never be something I can do every year. I would be much more inclined to drive to Ridgeway or Winnsboro or another range that is in the east. So if the Nationals rotate from range to range every year, I would have a much better chance of attending. If it is Raton for the next seven years, I will make that trip once (twice if I'm lucky) in seven years.

Until then, I'll have to make due with the State matches that are nearby.

I will have to sit down and write out an email to the NRA on my next day off.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring » Sun Sep 11, 2016 6:57 pm

I shot pistol stuff for many years before taking up rifle shooting. Run and gun Pistol shooting was my main strength because of the nature of my career. I only took up Lever Action competitive rifle shooting at the urging of a bud of mine who was a Marine Sniper . He said it was a hoot and held at the beautiful whittington center and he said the folks that shoot it are the nicest folks he'd met. He was right about everything and we've been shooting it and putting on matches for about 10 years. I would most certainly sell my scope guns before I'd make a two day drive....so I see what you mean on venue flopping.

I don't blame anyone for not making that drive and would rather have the match near them. Raton just seems like it's in the middle of the US and , although I have never been to Pennsylvania, I have been back east and damn sure didn't like it.

I was MUCH better with a handgun and shotgun than I'll ever be with a standing rifle. The run and gun sports are growing fast , they're fun to watch and I don't remember all this bitchin and protesting when I was shooting them in the late 80's and early 90's.

The guys/gals I shot with in the action sports were A+ personality types. We challenged each other , goaded each other and that was FUN and most certainly made us better shooters.

I tried that with folks that shoot scope rifles and they get butthurt.

My young buds may be smarter than I am by NOT taking up the scoped rifle sports .

I took them up with the idea that they would make me a better hunter, but have been properly chastised that silhouette is NOT practice for hunting.

Why the hell should I and the other 15 million hunters in the US pay this sport any damn attention at all if that is the elitist attitude ?

I think if the elections go well this year I'll be selling my scope guns and buying a good 3 gun rifle and shooting those Sports again.

I give up, you bitchin folks win. There will be two less shooters at the Highpower and Smallbore nationals next year..but we will be shooting with the nice folks in Lever Action.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Ghostofwar » Sun Sep 11, 2016 10:49 pm

Glen,

After reading back over your posts on this topic, it seems like you are pretty bias. Raton is within driving range for you and you like Raton. That's fine and good and I can't blame you for wanting to keep the Nationals at Raton so you can go every year.

That seems pretty selfish to me.

It has been said multiple times that Raton is "in the middle of the country." But that is simply not true. Even if it were true, driving half the country is still more than a day's drive.

Raton is 1458 miles from my house. That's 22 hours of total driving time.

Ridgeway is 705 miles. 11 hours.

Winnsboro LA is 650 miles. 10 hours.

You may have understood my point about not wanting to drive all the way out to NM, but I guess I failed to put into words what I really meant. If the Nationals rotate around the country, it would allow more people the chance to attend. It would allow the people that are in closer proximity the chance to go to the Nationals every other year or every third year, etc. So, you wouldn't have the same group going to the same nationals every year with a sprinkling of people that are willing to make the long journey west.

You say that there is to much complaining? There are good people on this forum that are voicing their opinion about the sport they love. They are speaking out against something that they feel is not in the best interest of the sport. That is not complaining.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Taps » Mon Sep 12, 2016 12:27 am

So FerretMaster, You say you have enough shooters in the east to do it by yourselves, now isn't that just fine and dandy. What is it you don't understand about the word "NATIONALS"?
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Jerry G » Mon Sep 12, 2016 6:43 am

I was called out by a member for not including Phoenix in the mix. I was there and would not got back. We complained about the heat and wind for a reason. I am sure if I lived there I would be acclimated to the conditions but I would estimate that 90% of our shooters are not.

Ferret Master

I saw a bunch of people complaining about the heat at Ben Avery. Many of them love shooting in the southern nationals where it is hot and humid.

If the nationals could be held in the spring or fall it would be different but NRA rules say it has to be in the summer when school is out.

If the weather is your problem, you must be an 'indoor' shooter. Buck it up, there isn't a place in the USA that has perfect weather.

I still think the NRA should take a closer look at their rules that were made when the nationals would fill up. The nationals need to move around the country so more competitors get a chance to participate. In the summertime I have to drive 350 miles to attend a match. In the winter I have 3 ranges within 80 miles which is still 1 1/2 hour drive in the Phoenix area.

Silhouette has become so fragmented that there are small turn-outs for any type of silhouette match. Just look at your book to see all the different types there are not to mention that other splinter pistol group and local clubs that don't even get NRA approval. It is a tough sport and we even loose a bunch to "F" class belly shooters.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring » Mon Sep 12, 2016 3:52 pm

Goatsofwar

I am biased..I like Raton and I like fun. Some other shooters are biased...they like their range. That's cool also.

I am not selfish with the sport. Jeanne and I are putting on a lever action Silhouette regional this weekend and are at capacity. If you've never put on a large match it is constant worry. I can say without hesitation that our regional s are the best firearms related contests I've ever been to. Jeanne is a supreme organizer and I combine all my past shooting sports experience to make even a slow and boring CLA match a LOT of fun. It's not the NRA that does this and if we ever fall short of our goals it's OUR fault and no one else's. We have recruited and retain New Shooters . THEY have FUN at our matches.

I have dealt with addicts for most of my adult life and I find comparing their attitude to this sport interesting.

" It's not their fault, it's someone else's fault" is a common theme and the only time I've seen them get better is when they ..THEY realize that THEIR actions have got them to this place and that only THEY can get out of the spot they're in....or perish.

Being totally objective with smallbore and highpower silhouette ( I really want the sports to thrive ) This year's nationals in those two disciplines made us not want to come back. It's not the NRA's fault, it's not the location ........

The first rifle competition I talked Jeanne into going to were the National lever action championships at Raton. She was apprehensive , but when a fellow competitor ( who we had never met ) handed Jeanne her car keys, pointed out her car and said " Honey, if you need moisturizer or anything else, that's my car...just take what you need." Jeanne was hooked and now is our match director and has organized three regional s

She felt just the opposite when I talked her into trying the scoped events at this year's Nationals.

I have been around, I have been called everything you can imagine and have experienced folks with guns that wanted to kill me so I can take a lot...But WHY should I go to an event that doesn't recruit the 15 million hunters who own rifles already or who tells them.. " This isn't practice for hunting, this is a COMPETITION"

The scoped silhouette events need fixing and the numbers will continue to drop unless folks are honest with themselves about the low turnout and take good steps to fix the sport and recruit the largest number of folks in the US that already own rifles....HUNTERS.

R.I.P. Highpower silhouette. You know who killed you.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by OnaginOffagin » Tue Sep 13, 2016 8:13 am

Fewer and fewer places to shoot, fewer and fewer youth programs and shooting clubs, less and less support from social organizations, the soaring cost of equipment and ammunition, less and less open ground for plinking, more and more urbanization.... there are a lot of reasons for the decline of the shooting sports. Some silhouette programs locally have been closed down to make room for action shooting games..... but all shooting disciplines seem to be in decline.

I'm not sure that moving around the location of the Nationals will make that much of a difference. The National Highpower and Smallbore Championships have until recently been held at a single location for a hundred years with no problems. In fact, the place, Camp Perry, has become part of American mythology.

I think the solution is simply to bring in new shooters to the game....any shooting game.... our local indoor club has picked up new shooters from the 4-H National Marksmanship Club program, not many, but some. I think every indoor winter club should sponsor a "sports rifle night," all standing, and use something other than paper targets. Spinners, maybe.... or even balloons. Get people standing up and shooting at reactive targets. We all know the allure of a falling target.... People like to see targets react. Then it's easy to sidle up to them and say, "You know, if you think this is fun, you need to try what we do during the summer.... it's called Rifle Silhouette!"
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by ChuckD » Tue Sep 13, 2016 4:04 pm

Glenn
I have been around elitist shooters (smallbore) and this forum or any matches I have shot in Silhouette do not seem to be that.
What will kill this sport if it goes is-
1. NRA (doing the same to NRA HP- attendance is 250 +/- at Nationals annually while CMP week draws 1200+
2. lack of ranges and opportunity to shoot.
3. Its freakin' HARD.

I have hunted for 45 years. My offhand for a silhouette shot and a deer I jumped at 50 yards are no where close- most hunters have no interest in competitive shooting. Many of my friends will shoot 3-5 shots at the range and its into the woods. I talk about shooting 2-5,000 a year, they freak out.

Hunters won't save our sport.
Sorry you don't like the East. I am looking forward to hitting Ridgeway this year.

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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by glen ring » Wed Sep 14, 2016 10:19 am

Chuck
I think you are 100% wrong. Silhouette does make a hunter a better shot at game. Geez dude..50 yards? Don't come to Oklahoma! My buds and I often shoot at coyotes at 500 yards , Prairie dogs as far as we can see them and deer at several Hundred.

Now I know I ruffle the feathers of cranky old white guys and I do that on purpose.

One thing for sure " If you always do what you've always done, you will always get what you've always got." LOW TURNOUT.

Time to change or HP silhouette will perish.

Come to think of it. That might be a good idea. Letting the cranky old white men keep on doing their thing until the sport dies. They will blame everyone else ..the NRA, society...when in fact it was THEY that killed it.

Give the young, AR shooting guys a chance to start a new, much more exciting game.

Varmint Silhouette ( Coyote, prairie dogs, crows ) shot at distance with varmint cal rifles from hunting positions, an AR silhouette match where the young guys aren't pansy asses that complain about brass hitting them. THAT would draw HUNTERS.

Chuckee

I have to give credit to out 80 year old Silhouette range guy. 80 chuckee, eighty friggin years old and he had a new idea !!He approached me one day and told me he wanted to try an AR silhouette match. He is a LONG time IHMSA guy , world record holder and is in the Guinness book of world records for air pistol silhouette.

His AR matches are ALWAYS full..ALWAYS and the numbers are growing with young guys that hear about the matches and want to shoot.

Now THAT is vision and not doing things the same old way.

Call him sometime chuckee and ask him about The COOL things he's done with our silhouette range. 80 friggin years old and he's an Innovator. His name is Jim Fields at the Oklahoma City Gun club. He has built and maintains one of the WORLD"S best silhouette ranges where the IHMSA internationals are held every year.

Jim maintains the range and has a vision for the shooting sports . The range is ALWAYS booked because it's such a great facility and at Eighty, Chuckee, Jim and he isn't afraid to try something new.

By the way.....He usually spanks all the young guys asses at the AR matches.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by Doodaddy » Wed Sep 14, 2016 12:21 pm

The problem with exclusively targeting hunters is assuming they're interested in competitive shooting at all or improving their shooting skills. I've never met a hunter that thought they weren't a fantastic shot, but then again, if shooting a completely stationary target while having a known time limit at a known distance having already perfectly zeroed at that distance is practice for the hunting they're doing, then sure I'm sure it might appeal to that person. I've yet to find a type of hunting that followed those guidelines, but I can't say I've hunted them all. You may as well say being a dragracer makes you better for driving from one red light to the next.

Some shooting sports can absolutely hone shooting skills for hunting, but silhouette would be one of my last choices for that. If this board was for running boar, trap, skeet, sporting clays, etc, etc, etc, the "makes you better for hunting" point would have more merit. The only correlation between hunters and competitive shooters is an interest in firearms.

A supportive community around an enjoyable event is what draws new shooters and maintains them, not an attempt of convincing.

As far as the thread topic goes, Nationals should roam just like the Superbowl, Olympics, World Cup, etc etc. Location requirements will limit potential options though. If the host doesn't swap yearly, it should stay at one location indefinitely. Shooters drive to Camp Perry yearly and I don't know of many complaints.
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Re: National Championship Survey

Post by dustinflint » Wed Sep 14, 2016 2:32 pm

ChuckD wrote:most hunters have no interest in competitive shooting.

Hunters won't save our sport.
This is accurate.

We've tried to attract hunters with very little success. We've told them how much better a shot it will make them and how it will improve their success in the field and all that good stuff. A few of them try it and some like it but most don't stick with it and the VAST majority we never see again if we can get them to come out at all. Some folks are drawn to competitive shooting and some aren't - just because you like guns doesn't mean you're going to like competition shooting and just because you like competition shooting doesn't mean you're going to like shooting rifles offhand.
OnaginOffagin wrote:I think the solution is simply to bring in new shooters to the game....any shooting game.... our local indoor club has picked up new shooters from the 4-H National Marksmanship Club program, not many, but some. I think every indoor winter club should sponsor a "sports rifle night," all standing, and use something other than paper targets. Spinners, maybe.... or even balloons. Get people standing up and shooting at reactive targets. We all know the allure of a falling target.... People like to see targets react. Then it's easy to sidle up to them and say, "You know, if you think this is fun, you need to try what we do during the summer.... it's called Rifle Silhouette!"
This is VERY accurate. The problem with the lack of growth of silhouette is simply that not many people know it exists. We as shooters need to get more people exposed to the game. The more that are exposed (hunters or otherwise) the more we have a chance of hooking. A lot wont like it but some will. If one million new people were exposed to silhouette and tried it and just ONE PERCENT stuck with it, that's TEN THOUSAND new silhouette shooters! Gotta get it out there!
glen ring wrote: Time to change or HP silhouette will perish.
This is not accurate.

There is nothing wrong with HP silhouette as a game. It's great and a lot of fun. It's a bit difficult to hit the targets and the lever gun game draws more shooters because the targets are so big and it's a lot easier to hit them (and it doesn't require as big a range as HP). I shoot all of it and there is no difference in the type of people that shoot lever gun as opposed to those who shoot scoped guns. We have great people in our sport and to call the scoped rifle silhouette shooters elitist is just incorrect.

Although, I do think that clubs that don't have room for a full-size HP silhouette range would do well to look into shooting HP silhouette on half-scale targets at half the distance to make up for the fact that there aren't many ranges. - That's one change that might help get more matches and therefore more people exposed to the game and more people shooting.
glen ring wrote: Varmint Silhouette ( Coyote, prairie dogs, crows ) shot at distance with varmint cal rifles from hunting positions, an AR silhouette match where the young guys aren't pansy asses that complain about brass hitting them. THAT would draw HUNTERS.
This is akin to trying to get people to play football and in doing so outlawing tackling and only allowing players to use their feet instead of hands. You might attract some soccer players but the game you're attracting them to would no longer be football. Shooting steel targets from "hunting positions" might be fun, and there is nothing wrong with setting it up at the range for fun, but it's not silhouette. We could switch from steel targets to clay and switch from rifles to shotguns and throw the targets up in the air and we might attract some sporting clays and skeet shooters!
glen ring wrote:Now I know I ruffle the feathers of cranky old white guys and I do that on purpose.

Come to think of it. That might be a good idea. Letting the cranky old white men keep on doing their thing until the sport dies. They will blame everyone else ..the NRA, society...when in fact it was THEY that killed it.

R.I.P. Highpower silhouette. You know who killed you.

I give up, you bitchin folks win. There will be two less shooters at the Highpower and Smallbore nationals next year.
I don't understand this mentality at all...

Dustin

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