Short Vs Long barrel

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irod
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Short Vs Long barrel

Post by irod »

In SB silhouette wich one is better short or long barrel?...

With iron sigths, a longer barrel offers a longer sigth radius; but, as i recall, some barrel makers stands that a short barrel are more precise because are more ticker. Why are we seing long barrels in scoped rifles?, balance?, the rifling twist perhaps?.

In a SB silohuette scoped rifle, what is the minimum barrel legth recomended for?, 18"?... why
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acorneau
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by acorneau »

I don't have a definitive answer for you but here are some things to consider...

- Regular 22LR ammo gets it's maximum velocity in a barrel after 17 inches or so and anything more is (technically) slowing the bullet down. In reality it doesn't make enough of a practical difference in our sport to matter.

- Shorter barrels can be stiffer than an equivalent longer barrel, thus less susceptible to barrel harmonic issues. Your natural hold will be a much larger issue than any barrel harmonics issues.

- Longer barrels put more mass out front where it will help with wobble (via inertia), something we silhouette shooters are always concerned with controlling. Whether the front-heavy balance is workable for you is an individual matter. In my case my TX200 is very front-heavy and it's the one I shoot the best.

- The most popular silhouette rifle (barreled action) is arguably the Anschutz 1712. It has a 21.5" barrel that is a bit thicker than a traditional "sporter weight" barrel like you would find on a CZ 455 or the like. Seems to work well for a lot of folks.


I'm sure there is more info to consider when making a choice but that should get you started.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by Doodaddy »

Allen pretty much nailed all of the talking points on barrel length. Shorter barrels are stiffer, longer barrels have more flex and of course diameter influences stiffness.

On my last build I spent a lot of energy calculating the weight of my barrel so that I got the balance I wanted out of the rifle while having the most stiff barrel. I find the stiffer barrels to be less hold sensitive POA/POI wise. I built an entire spreadsheet to calculate the weight of a barrel for any type of contour as long as you know the diameter of the barrel at each change.

If you're concerned about barrel length in regards to accuracy, I wouldn't worry too much with it. I've seen barrels from 16" to 27"+ shoot well. The condition of the bore, bore diameter, and probably most importantly the location of the crown in relation to bore diameter (you want it at the tightest point of the bore) is what likely influences accuracy the most barrel wise.
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jbzeus
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by jbzeus »

Dodaddy, what was your conclusion regarding contour, barrel maker and length?
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

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jbzeus wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 7:04 am Dodaddy, what was your conclusion regarding contour, barrel maker and length?
Opinions on barrel makers will vary wildly from shooter to shooter. Kind of like the Ford/Chevy & Ping/Callaway debates. Everyone has the one brand they think is always the best. Different disciplines have their favorite brands, machining styles, rifling patterns, groove count, and lapping styles etc etc etc. It's a rabbit hole. Silhouette shooters seem to favor Lilja. Lilja hasn't been present in rimfire benchrest shooting in probably over a decade. Shilen has been running that show with Muller taking a lot of the spotlight in recent big wins, but finding Muller barrels is no small feat. Those two I'm not even sure I've seen on a silhouette line before. Centerfire brings in an entirely different group of producers.

Here's what I'll say. Most, if not all, of your quality barrel producers make a fine barrel and it's hard to make the wrong choice in reality. Where most go wrong, assuming they do go wrong, is they base their purchase off of the exception instead of the rule. Cheaper brand producers can make a lights out barrel, but what percentage of their production meet that standard? Are you willing to gamble? It's more hassle than it's worth in my opinion. It's like trying to force cheap ammo or a Chinese scope to work out. It can happen, but won't most of the time.

The thing is that someone could produce a stellar barrel and a stellar gunsmith fit it perfectly to a perfect action paired with perfect ammo that is shot by some chump coming in last place. The equipment isn't everything. Shooters have a tendency to go straight to an equipment list and then it's monkey see, monkey do. The good producers are all capable of making a bad barrel just as they are a good barrel. Don't let the exceptions drive you from their standard. Silhouette isn't as finicky as a group as the benchrest world, but the point remains.

Barrel contour really doesn't matter that much accuracy wise in silhouette in my opinion. Straight contours are often favored in rimfire benchrest, but that doesn't mean you won't see heavy tapers. Tapers can introduce potential problems in bore uniformity (hardly ever to a degree that matters, but we'll get to that), but are mostly somewhat harder to "tune" assuming you're using a Harrel's muzzle device or the like. That's unrelated here since we shoot our barrel's naked. I say pick a contour that will leave you with the most rigid barrel you can afford weight wise.

Barrel length I don't see as important in regards to accuracy on a macro level. I'm very into the aesthetics of a rifle and I prefer the look of a longer barrel. Like I mentioned before, the location of the crown plays a huge role in accuracy. Lead is a dead material meaning that once you squeeze it down, it's not expanding back out. So if your barrel's bore isn't a perfectly straight and uniform cylinder (unlikely, but possible) or a consistent taper from chamber to muzzle (this is more common and easier to control), you're going to run into issues.

Here's what I mean. Let's say for simplicity's sake that the diameter of our bullets is .224". Great. You chamber your bullet and fire. The bullet is traveling down the barrel now. The bore from just after the chamber to 12" down the barrel measures .217". The bullet is going to conform to that as it travels down the barrel. Maybe it gets denser, maybe it increases length to compensate, it doesn't matter. The diameter of the bullet isn't going to be larger than the bore it's traveling down. The bullet is now at .217". Ok. At the 13" the bore opens up some to .222" from the .217" earlier. This could be from the barrel being turned down, variation in steel density, or any multitude of reasons. The problem you have now is a .217" lead bullet bouncing around a .222" bore because the bullet isn't going to expand to fit the now larger bore. This is will significantly impact your rifle's potential accuracy for many reasons.

I've exaggerated for emphasis. I said all of that to say this. Many gunsmiths will slug the barrel carefully to measure for the tightest point in the barrel's bore and that's what will determine the barrel's length and crown location. To avoid having the tight spot in the barrel before the crown example I gave earlier, taper lapping is often used so that the bore gets smaller in diameter over the length of the barrel. This is also a reason some barrels have a reverse taper as turning down a barrel's outside diameter does influence the internal diameter of the bore, usually as the OD of the barrel decreases (assuming it's being turned down after it's been bored), the ID of the barrel increases. If you turn the barrel down in a reverse taper contour, it should have the bore also decrease as you travel towards the crown.

To be short, pick a good gunsmith and ask them what they prefer. If they're more familiar with brand X's steel or groove count and such, the better the odds are of an excellent chamber. We as shooters often forget that the gunsmith is a wealth of experience and that we shouldn't come to tell them what to do for us. We should tell them what we want and let them take care of the rest. It's no different than when you see a doctor. Let them do their job. If you're fitting your own barrel, then buy a barrel from a good manufacturer (Shilen, Lilja, Benchmark, Broughton, Muller, Walther, I'm sure there are others). In either event, know your options. You have a weight limit to stay under. Know what everything else weighs and let that guide you in your barrel choice, but keep in mind it's easier to add weight than lose it.

My conclusion was I went with a barrel manufacturer that would let me do a custom taper because I was being very particular about my contour because of weight (my action is super heavy and that somewhat put me behind so to speak). That gave me two options: Lilja and Benchmark. My gunsmith was more familiar with Benchmark and my barrel supplier preferred 3 grooves over 2. I ordered a Benchmark 3 groove barrel. I calculated my weight and told the gunsmith to cut on the breech end so that the barrel was 22-24" long while we still crowned at the optimum location. It came back to me at 23" and it shoots outstanding.

I know I rambled. My blood sugar is low lol. If you want to know exactly what I did, my barrel's specs are listed on row 24 and every component is listed in the center up top. The why is above.

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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by DavidABQ »

I suppose it is a bad idea to use a take-off barrel from my Ruger 10-22 and have it fitted to my 1712?

I thought it might be nice to have the option of open sights.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by dhatch »

Jbzeus. Go ahead. I dare you! I double dogged DARE you. Just do it. Ask dodaddy another question. Ask him.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by Doodaddy »

DavidABQ wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 2:53 pm I suppose it is a bad idea to use a take-off barrel from my Ruger 10-22 and have it fitted to my 1712?

I thought it might be nice to have the option of open sights.
Can't hurt to try it. :ympray:
dhatch wrote: Wed Jun 28, 2017 4:13 pm Jbzeus. Go ahead. I dare you! I double dogged DARE you. Just do it. Ask dodaddy another question. Ask him.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by irod »

Muy interesante. Mil gracias..
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by Jerry G »

The Anny has a pinned barrel and the 10-22 has a barrel that is held in place by being jambed in with a set screw. It would be a major job to put a bad barrel in your Anny. Best way to have a new barrel put on your Anny would to have your receiver threaded and then screw a new Lilja barrel in place.

but I know you were joking.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

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Jerry G wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:33 am The Anny has a pinned barrel and the 10-22 has a barrel that is held in place by being jambed in with a set screw. It would be a major job to put a bad barrel in your Anny. Best way to have a new barrel put on your Anny would to have your receiver threaded and then screw a new Lilja barrel in place.

but I know you were joking.
I love that Anschutz went to a threaded receiver on the 54.30 model.
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irod
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by irod »

Doodaddy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:42 am [quote=" I love that Anschutz went to a threaded receiver on the 54.30 model.
Why?
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by Doodaddy »

irod wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 1:12 pm
Doodaddy wrote: Thu Jun 29, 2017 11:42 am [quote=" I love that Anschutz went to a threaded receiver on the 54.30 model.
Why?
Just a preference. Plenty of pinned, glued, and slip fitted barreled actions shoot great. In fact, I've had guns that were deadly accurate that were all of those (including one that started as a pinned action and was rebarreled using glue). I just like the more exact repeatability of a threaded barrel/action mate particularly versus the pinned and glued variants.
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by GSL »

HI All ,
I certainly believe ALL the major points regarding the straightforward issues of BARREL LENGTH have been covered !
Thank you !
My 2 cents , bear with me , is with fit ! Fitting to the SHOOTER to allow great shooting performance ...
I have encountered MANY circumstances regarding ULTRA accurate rifles ... on the bench , whereby the owner
sells the rifle because of bad performance that can be traced to FIT of that rifle !
Many shooters will beat themselves up or even quit because THEY do not understand FIT ...
Besides LOP and overal BALANCE ; where they HOLD that rifle and trigger and the pitch of the BUTTPLATE
can make a tremendous difference in whether the rifle will drop the shot WHERE you touch off ! YES ...
I have heard wives tales regarding minute of angle adjustments REQUIRED simply because of an OFFHAND position ...
in comparison to OTHER positions , including a benchrest position ...
I really hope and believe SOME of you understand what I may or may NOT be articulating here ...
thank you GSL .
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Re: Short Vs Long barrel

Post by irod »

Thanks for yours answers...
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