Silhouette with a Fortner

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mountainman308
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Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by mountainman308 » Wed Jun 13, 2018 6:15 pm

I shot a Fortner for the first time this past weekend, and I think I am in love. My next step was to look up the price, then I was in shock. Now I am planning, and have $85 in the Fortner Fund. I keep the rifle up and in position for all 5 shots per bank, so the easily actuated action would be a huge benefit, as I won't have to completely remove my firing hand from the wrist. I also like how the Anschutz magazines rest on my hand. The only con I can see is the overall cost. I'm shooting a cz 455 with a home made stock and a Lilja barrel now, so the Forter would be a substantial upgrade.

So my question is, do any of you all shoot SB Silhouette with a Fortner? Any pros or cons that I missed?

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Emietenkorte
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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by Emietenkorte » Wed Jun 13, 2018 7:08 pm

There are a few shooters out there that use them, they are definitely fun to shoot. A few things to consider from your post...

"I also like how the Anschutz magazines rest on my hand"

I'm not sure if this is implying that you are using the magazine as support, if it is, you might want to be aware of this from the silhouette rule book...
"Magazines do not have to conform to stock measurements but those that extend below the stock line may not be used as support as per Rule 3.I(h) and 3.14."

Another thing about them is they do have a little bit slower lock time than the standard 54 actions. I'm not sure if that matters to you but again, just something to be aware of. The main thing though, if you enjoy shooting it then have fun!

mountainman308
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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by mountainman308 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 4:42 am

I could have worded that more clearly. What I meant to say was that I want to start shooting over a closed fist, As I currently use a three finger hold right now. I like how the anschutz magazine rests on my knuckles without cutting into them, unlike the CZ magazines.

I didn’t know about the slightly slower lock time. Is there anywhere I can find the exact time, so I can compare it with my current cz and a 1712?

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by atomicbrh » Thu Jun 14, 2018 8:52 am

If your knuckles are contacting the magazine in any way even with a closed fist or if you are anchoring any part of the front hand on any part of the magazine as in sides, bottom, front or back; it is still goes against Rule 3.1(d) and Rule 3.14.

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Emietenkorte
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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by Emietenkorte » Thu Jun 14, 2018 9:02 am

That makes sense regarding your hold. I used to shoot that way too (closed fist not on magazine). Regarding lock times there is a thread on RFC.
http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/sh ... p?t=596775

On the Anschutz website it states their Fortner action has a 4m/s lock time. Can't find the 1712 but can't imagine it being that slow, I shoot a finnfire action personally, with everything that I have seen the finnfire and remington 541/581 seem to be the fastest.
http://jga.anschuetz-sport.com/index.ph ... &sprache=1

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by mountainman308 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 11:48 am

Question on Rule 3.1(d) and Rule 3.14:

I had always read this to mean that you could not have a protruding magazine that added support, however you could contact the magazine with your support hand if it was flush, or close to flush, with the bottom of the stock. If this is not the case, then how are positions like the ones Cathy Winstead Severin uses legal, as she seems to be contacting the magazine of her 1712 with her support hand?

Image

Secondly, thanks for the direction to the thread on RFC. A person identified as an Anschutz rep stated the lock time as 1.2 ms, rather than the slower time quoted earlier.


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Fortner Lock Time
Interesting read and some interesting conclusions on the Fortner lock time.

Yes, Biathlon is unique and as expected shooting targets in temperatures as low as -20° C with rim fire ammo demands some changes from a conventional rim fire rifle to ensure consistency in cold temperatures.

As such, the fortner action has a very heavy spring. So heavy in fact there is a special firing spring tool to compress it to remove the lock.

In speaking with Peter Fortner, the moving time of the firing pin is approx 1.2ms. This time is the same for all Fortner actions. So there you have it, from the man himself. "


Given this, has any impartial 3rd party actually measured the time to confirm either account?

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by DavidABQ » Thu Jun 14, 2018 1:28 pm

:-o
I guess all this time that I have been attaching a 3" long block to my magazine for my 1712 to prop it up higher in my left is illegal?

Well, that changes things. :((

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by atomicbrh » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm

http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-severin/
If I was on a jury and that position was protested, I would have to say that it is not allowed if there is a magazine or a single shot follower under her left index finger.
If it is a single shot rifle then it is a legal position. Sure, "if" it is a magazine fed rifle, the majority of her left hand not the index finger is supporting the rifle and she is not gaining any depth from the magazine but it is still not within the spirit and intent of the rules.
This is a mute point. Cathy has not shot a 1712 in quite a few years unless she is taking a 1712 to international competition where the rules call for a much lighter rifle than what we shoot in the states. She is shooting one of the single shot custom actions in hunter smallbore now. Have not talked to her about this but just observed the rifle in passing. The first smallbore match we shot with Cathy was 18 years ago.

You may think my reply is just being picky but we were forced to study the rules because of this situation:
Many years ago Cathy served on a jury that received if I recall correctly 5 or more protests during a single 40 shot match about our child who was a sub-junior at the time. One was about equipment and the others were about position. He was a tough sub-junior, not a single protest rattled him and he was ruled legal in every instance. It was simply multiple attempts to rattle him and every time he had to appear before the jury it made him more determined to shoot well. What those protests did accomplish was to ruin spotting and shooting for the other 3 adults that were squadded with him. The adults could not shoot with their normal spotter because we had to appear before the jury so many times during that single 40 shot match. Everything with our squad was out of sequence. Imagine shooting 10 shots and being protested. Go appear before the jury with your little sub-junior rifle and your Dad. Jury votes legal. Go shoot the next 10 shots, get protested and go appear before the jury with your little sub-junior rifle and your Dad. Jury votes legal. Imagine doing that every time you shoot a bank of 10. When your kid goes before the jury that many times you figure out you need to read the rules.
Last edited by atomicbrh on Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:45 pm, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by mountainman308 » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:16 pm

It appears that the image I tried to post in the last entry failed to come through. My apologies. I was trying to find an image where the model made it clear that a mag was in the rifle.

I also want to clarify that I didn't mean to call out Cathy, rather I intended to use her as a reference to the Platonic Ideal of a Silhouette hold.

Either way, I'll take it under advisement and consult with my local match director as to what he finds acceptable in his matches.

Back to Fortners, I saw that one came up for sale here back in May with a nice stock and a threaded barrel presumably shortened to the choke. Ideally I would be looking for something like that. A used but proven firearm from a reputable shooter seems agreeable to me. I assume Anschutz will warranty used guns just the same as guns sold new?

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by atomicbrh » Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:33 pm

If you scroll down to the second photo in that article you will see that the forearm on her rifle has no magazine or magazine slot as in absolutely a flush stock. As much as Cathy analyzes every part of her competition shooting, I did not think there was any way her position would not be within the spirit and intent of the rules.
I still think Cathy is on all single shots now so her left hand position is a mute point.
The other thing you have to take into consideration is that upward pressure or any other pressure on the magazine from any direction can influence the angle at which the cartridge enters the chamber possibly damaging the cartridge or bullet affecting accuracy.

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by thauglor » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:30 pm

atomicbrh wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-severin/
If I was on a jury and that position was protested, I would have to say that it is not allowed if there is a magazine or a single shot follower under her left index finger.
If it is a single shot rifle then it is a legal position....
That's only if the magazine was not flush with the stock. If it is flush, then it's okay per rule 3.1(d)

They should just change it nothing used for support can be more than 2 1/4 inches below the bore line.

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Jason
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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by Jason » Thu Jun 14, 2018 3:47 pm

atomicbrh wrote:
Thu Jun 14, 2018 2:01 pm
http://bulletin.accurateshooter.com/201 ... d-severin/
If I was on a jury and that position was protested, I would have to say that it is not allowed if there is a magazine or a single shot follower under her left index finger.
If it is a single shot rifle then it is a legal position. Sure, "if" it is a magazine fed rifle, the majority of her left hand not the index finger is supporting the rifle and she is not gaining any depth from the magazine but it is still not within the spirit and intent of the rules.
This is a mute point. Cathy has not shot a 1712 in quite a few years unless she is taking a 1712 to international competition where the rules call for a much lighter rifle than what we shoot in the states. She is shooting one of the single shot custom actions in hunter smallbore now. Have not talked to her about this but just observed the rifle in passing. The first smallbore match we shot with Cathy was 18 years ago.
The only pictures at that URL are of Cathy shooting or standing behind her single-shot high power rifle. I'm not sure how that's related to what you're talking about with the 1712 or other smallbore rifles.

Image

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Re: Silhouette with a Fortner

Post by atomicbrh » Fri Jun 15, 2018 6:23 am

Jason, you must have missed or superficially read my replies.
You and I are in agreement. Single shot rifle and that position meets position rules.

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