Could use more advice on building a smallbore rifle...

[Jason]

After last Saturday in Tacoma where I got to handle and shoot everything from a new 1712 Meister grade to customs in Mark Pharr and Steve Wooster's stocks, this little CZ that I have is killing me. I am going to get a new rifle and it's going to be in the next few months. The factory 1712 stock was pretty good, but was nowhere close to as good as either custom stock. That means that I definitely want a custom and am 99% sure I want it in Steve Wooster's stock. I tried Dave's rifle in the the Mark Pharr stock and it felt great, but Larry's rifle in Steve's stock just felt "right" and I can't really think of any other way to say it. I'm not referring to the rounded forearm that the wooster stock happens to have, as I know Mark has a stock out like that now for split finger shooters. I mean the pistol grip and cheekpiece. It was like it was made specifically made for me.

What I am really having trouble trying to decide on right now is what action/trigger to go with. There's always the option of just getting the 1712 barreled action ($900) and having it bedded into the wooster stock, but I know I'd want to get it rebarreled later anyway. This would probably get me into a better rifle the soonest, and possibly the cheapest, but I just don't see spending the cash on a rifle like this without doing it right from the start. To get the better trigger, I could either get the 54.18MSR barreled action ($1262) or wait and try to find a used rifle with that action (likely not much cheaper) and have the gun built off of it, but that seems like the most expensive, and not necessarily the best, way to do things. It would also probably take the longest, as I'd have to wait around for a while trying to find a decent price on the used rifle.

That day was the first time I'd heard of using the Remington 541/581 actions to base a custom smallbore gun off of. I got this quote from Marvin from another thread on here. Oddly enough, Eric Boos was one of the ones I talked to about it.

Hello Casey...First of all, I can't take credit for this set-up. That goes to Dennis Martinen and Eric Boos. These guys are always looking for ways to improve their equiptment.

They chose the Rem 581 / 541 action because they are about 8 or 9 ounce lighter that an Anschutz 1710 or 54. The Remingtons also have a much faster lock time than the Anschutz.

Another factor is that they are readily available and they are relativley inexpensive compared to an Anschutz. But, the main reason is the weight and the lock time.

Dennis and Eric firmly beleive that the weight of the gun should be in the barrel. Not the receiver or stock. They also like the barrel to be finished at 24" long.

When you marry the Remington receiver to an Anschutz 5018 trigger, you have a pretty sexy combination.

I thread the inside of the receiver to receive a special contour Shilen Select Match barrel. Sorry, but no more out of tolerance Lilja barrels on my guns. I then weld on some mounting pads and machine them to the correct height, drill and tap, then bolt on the Anschutz trigger after re-bluing the receiver.

As to the cost, your looking at somewhere around $1550 plus or minus if you supply me with the receiver.

This cost includes the Anschutz 5018 trigger, Two pound spring conversion kit, Shilen Select Match stainless barrel, 16 twist, thread receiver, Install barrel, cut extractor slots, Mark Pharr stock, Airweight trigger guard, 11 MOA tapered base & rings, Drill & Tap receiver 8-40 for tapered base, Polish & Re-blue receiver, Inlet & alum. pillar bed stock, Briley trigger shoe......Pretty much the complete gun ready for you to mount your scope.

Hope this helps....Marv

To hear Eric talk, it didn't sound like he was all that impressed with using the Remington action. I think his quote was that it had a fast lock time, but it really was a "piece of shit action" when compared to the Anschutz, as in it wouldn't be nearly as smooth and such, plus having to remove the trigger assembly just to get the bolt out of the action. This would also probably be the quickest option for me, as 541/581 actions are everywhere and I could have one in-hand in less than a week with a little effort. Is there any difference between the two, as far as building a custom gun is concerned?

I really did like the 5018 triggers (Larry's HP rifle and Dave's smallbore rifle) slightly better than the other one that I forget the model number of (Larry's smallbore rifle and Blaire's new 1712). Either trigger model was so much better than what I have now that the difference could just be in how they were polished/adjusted for all I know, though. To be honest, I'd be utterly happy with pretty much an exact copy of Larry's rifle and it doesn't have the 5018 trigger on it. Is there really that much of a difference in quality/consistency of the trigger pull between the two once a good gunsmith (most likely Marv) has worked a little magic on them? I want a trigger that stays consistent and doesn't change. All the talk about adjustability is great, but it doesn't really matter that much to me. I need to spend more time practicing and less time changing things and re-sighting in my scope after changing things, anyway.

Ugh.. I've rambled on enough to make it clear where I am in the decision-making process, hopefully. I would dearly appreciate any advice or opinions that any of you can give me here.

[ajj]

Why is it that you know you'd want to get the 1712 re-barreled? I'm not arguing, just asking. If it's for balance, you can probably weight the stock. If it's for accuracy, you may go the wrong way.

[Jason]

Because I'd be far underweight. I would rather have the weight in the barrel than in the stock.

[GeoNLR]

OK, my worthless opinion...LOL

Stock. When you pick up the one that "just feels right", that's the one. I followed Pharr's stock for a while and just never went over the edge until last April in FL he had finished stocks and I was able to spend some time shooting his.. it just "felt right" and once building it to my measurments, it's "more right"...LOL. Go with the one you like.

As far as not that big a difference between the trigger in the 54/1712/SAKO/REM/?????. I do differ with you on this one. It's what you DONT know that is going to make to difference. Heck I sure don't know... But I do know that folks that make their living shooting (i.e. Tubb and others) have came out and said the 5022 (is that the right #???LOL, you know-the trigger in the 54.18msr) is the BEST trigger in the world. Not a good trigger, not a viable option... THE best. That should make you think for a second. You are not building this to get you into AA or AAA or even Master for that matter. This is the type of investment you are making for a lifetime of service and use, why use second best or good enoungh? What is the savings $? Will you think it was worth the $400 difference between the 1712 and the 54.18 (10) years from now? I know I will not regret mine... Can you assure yourself that X years down the road you will not want the ability to take 2.5 ozs from the first stage and put it on the second stage? What about go from a single stage to a 2 stage or vice versa?

As far as weight in the barrel and not the receiver.... Well you mentioned going 24" on the length. My rig with a 25" heavy taper (sandburg???) and a 54.18msr action weighs right at 7 pounds. That will leave room for 24 ozs of scope and rings... Hack an inch from the barrel and you're how far under weight with a 17oz leupold and 3 oz Marv base and rings? 6-8 ozs? Take e 8 ozs from the receiver and now you're at 1 pound under???

Balance does come into play here at some point as well. I made mine barrel heavy. That is where I wanted to start as it's a lot cheaper to hack an inch than add one... BUT! I can not imagine 8 more ozs removed from my receiver and placed out in front (i.e. in barrel weight)...

Options are good, opinions are, well worth what you pay for them and to some extent only worthy of the source. I would pick a smith and move full steam ahead... It's amazing how after you send a guy $1,000 plus to preform a job just how much of their attention you will have during the planning stage... These guys (Pharr, Pearson, others I'm sure) love what they do, and take pride in their work!

[dwl]

Jason;

Don't buy a Remington 581. You know why? Because you haven't spent enough time shooting them and can't evaluate another person's opinion on whether they're good or not. It's a "piece of shit" to one person and "the next best thing" to another.

You're trying to sorting through other peoples opinions trying make a decision. That's not an insult, it's an observation that you lack sufficient information to evaluate the opnions you're getting. Go shoot a lot and then you'll have your own opinion to cross check against everyone elses. Either that or go buy the very best and you'll never have to wonder if you bought the right stuff.

By the way, I do know what I'm talking about since I shoot both a Remi 541S and an Anschutz. My Remington is easily accurate enough, and the single stage trigger good enough, for silhouette. Hell, Iv'e got prior owners BR50 targets to prove it's good enough but....maybe someone elses Remington is a POS. You never know.

Go shoot some more.

dwl

[Jason]

Options are good, opinions are, well worth what you pay for them and to some extent only worthy of the source. I would pick a smith and move full steam ahead... It's amazing how after you send a guy $1,000 plus to preform a job just how much of their attention you will have during the planning stage... These guys (Pharr, Pearson, others I'm sure) love what they do, and take pride in their work!

Actually, the only smith I've contacted so far is Marvin and he's been very helpful. I haven't sent him a penny yet and he's been great. I also met him last year at Pe Ell and he was nothing but helpful with a couple questions then. I can't imagine that anyone else will be doing the work once I decide what route I'm going (so I know how much I'll have to spend) and get the funds to finance it. I honestly think it would be silly to have one of the best around within driving distance, who has been helpful with this process so far, and not have him build my rifle.

[Jason]

Jason;

Don't buy a Remington 581. You know why? Because you haven't spent enough time shooting them and can't evaluate another person's opinion on whether they're good or not. It's a "piece of shit" to one person and "the next best thing" to another.

You're trying to sorting through other peoples opinions trying make a decision. That's not an insult, it's an observation that you lack sufficient information to evaluate the opnions you're getting. Go shoot a lot and then you'll have your own opinion to cross check against everyone elses. Either that or go buy the very best and you'll never have to wonder if you bought the right stuff.

By the way, I do know what I'm talking about since I shoot both a Remi 541S and an Anschutz. My Remington is easily accurate enough, and the single stage trigger good enough, for silhouette. Hell, Iv'e got prior owners BR50 targets to prove it's good enough but....maybe someone elses Remington is a POS. You never know.

Go shoot some more.

dwl

Actually, I do know both the people that Marvin attributed the use of the Rem 541/581 for a silhouette rifle to. I also know their shooting accomplishments. I know that their opinions aren't just opinions, but are based on actual use and experimentation by very good shooters. Also, I don't think Eric was saying that the Remington action would make anything less than a supremely accurate rifle. His point was that the Remington actions would be nowhere close to as smooth or refined as the Anschutz 54 action and resale value, should I decide to sell the rifle later, would be very low compared to a custom based on an Anschutz action.

[Jason]

As far as not that big a difference between the trigger in the 54/1712/SAKO/REM/?????. I do differ with you on this one. It's what you DONT know that is going to make to difference. Heck I sure don't know... But I do know that folks that make their living shooting (i.e. Tubb and others) have came out and said the 5022 (is that the right #???LOL, you know-the trigger in the 54.18msr) is the BEST trigger in the world. Not a good trigger, not a viable option... THE best. That should make you think for a second. You are not building this to get you into AA or AAA or even Master for that matter. This is the type of investment you are making for a lifetime of service and use, why use second best or good enoungh? What is the savings $? Will you think it was worth the $400 difference between the 1712 and the 54.18 (10) years from now? I know I will not regret mine... Can you assure yourself that X years down the road you will not want the ability to take 2.5 ozs from the first stage and put it on the second stage? What about go from a single stage to a 2 stage or vice versa?

As far as weight in the barrel and not the receiver.... Well you mentioned going 24" on the length. My rig with a 25" heavy taper (sandburg???) and a 54.18msr action weighs right at 7 pounds. That will leave room for 24 ozs of scope and rings... Hack an inch from the barrel and you're how far under weight with a 17oz leupold and 3 oz Marv base and rings? 6-8 ozs? Take e 8 ozs from the receiver and now you're at 1 pound under???

Excellent point with the trigger here, and that's the way I'm leaning currently. I am doing a couple side jobs and selling off a few guns to be able to afford this. With a family starting out with a mortgage and three kids, silhouette shooting just can't be the top priority in my life so it can't the majority of my extra income or time. That's not a whine at all, but a statement of where I am in my life, and I couldn't be happier. My point is that this purchase is a one shot deal for me. Whatever I choose, that's it for me, at least for a few years. For good or bad, I'll be shooting whatever I have built for a long time to come. There won't be an extra $600-700 popping up for a new barrel or stock every year. That's also why I'm trying to do my best to research my options as much as I can before I pull the trigger.

After trying all those very nice rifles down at Tacoma and then having to go back to my little CZ, I was starting to get a bit panicked, to be honest. I just moved up to AAA in hunter class, and that's the classification that the Conard Cup uses, so I was worried about getting embarassed by being one of the lowest scorers in my class. After a little time to think, though, I'm much less panicked and actually fairly optimistic. No matter what rifle I shoot, the realistic chances of me winning anything are slim as even the perfect rifle for me wouldn't make me shoot any better than mid-AAA scores. That's just where my skills are right now. Now, instead of being rushed to try to get an action for the new rifle, get it built, and practice at least a little before the Conard Cup (less than 3 months away, so not likely, heh), I'm thinking I might just get all the money I can together and have it on hand in case a good deal on a donor rifle or action comes along. If I don't happen to find one before the Conard Cup, then I'll get to see even more great stuff to help me choose little details. I'll just kick back and enjoy the shoot and be proud to be two classes higher than I was last year, instead of giving a repeat of my "Nervous Nellie" performance that made Marv remember me as the guy pacing up and down the line in the bright yellow raincoat.