Another Newbie

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p14shooter
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Another Newbie

Post by p14shooter »

Well, here it goes.

I have been shooting ISSF rifle and sporting rifle (I am in Canada) for the last 25 years or so. I don't do well, but I enjoy it. Over the last number of years though participation has dropped off significantly. Just like in all other areas. And when I hear about the shotgun shoots here attracting over 100, sometimes 140 shooters, I got to thinking, how can I get more people shooting rifle and silhouette came to mind. I am currently doing some testing with paper targets here with another guy to see if we can fit the sport into the limited range spaces that we have. We are in Nova Scotia and typically an outdoor range has about 8-10 positions for bullseye shooters but we are unsure how much space we need for silhouettes. Aaaaanyway, can anyone give any suggestions on how to introduce the sport to an area where it has never been shot before? It would be good to have a little advice based on experience. I am not expecting big things at fist by any means. To get one relay would probably be good.

I do have a couple other questions though. I have posed this to someone else but will open it up to the masses for comment.

How far apart do the banks have to be from one another if on the same distance. Also, should adjacent banks of different distances be separated by x amount of distance? Can adjacent banks of different distances overlap on the same vertical space, maybe by one or two animals, but be at different heights? I understand the pitfalls of this but I am future looking at a problem I have. The range I normally shoot at is a baffled range so the upright support posts are providing an obstacle. We have positions for 8 bulls-eye shooters but do not know if this will allow 8 positions for silhouette shooters. I have attached a picture to help you understand. The average distance between posts is just under 9 feet, which if you put the target lengths in (turkeys at 2'10 and rams at 4'10), will fit with no room to spare. If I could over lap at different heights, it would solve that issue. Here I am talking about 2 sets when I don't even know if I will get the people for one set. That is just how my mind works. I know the range is not big, so you wont be offending me if you tell me that I will only ever be able to get one set on it.

Which leads to another question, which I could not find or do not remember in the rules, do the animals have to be shot in order from where you start (such as turkey, ram, chicken, pig) or can they be shot in off order ( chicken, ram, turkey, pig)?

I see pictures of the bank construction, but could someone provide drawings of how to build them? We are handsome here, not handy, and everything we think about leads us to the same result. How and what do we build the banks of so that when the bank itself is hit, all the animals do not fall off.

We are going to try a few more practices/tests of different things to see if they are going to work at the range, and if so, then we are probably going to buy a set and see if we can get something going.



Image

Thanks for your help

Paul
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dustinflint
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by dustinflint »

Paul,

My best suggestion for getting shooters out to your match is to schedule a match and promote it however you guys promote any other match to the shooters around. Keep having it and keep trying to get shooters and hopefully they will come. Put up fliers, send emails, post to message boards etc. Don't be a big stickler for the rules. Let people shoot what they have.

As far as constructing a range, if were you I would buy one set of freestanding targets and put them at the correct distances. As long as you can stand at the firing line see the targets, it doesn't matter how much space you put between the banks, etc. Once things get bigger you can worry about having a better range. There are lots of different ways of building rails. You can use individual stands for each target or get some channel iron or other type of metal and put targets on that. Hell, just starting out you could get some two by fours and set them on that and maybe put Another piece of wood in front of your rail to keep rail hits from rattling the targets off the stands. Just get the target sitting out there in view of the shooters and go at it.

You do not have to shoot the targets in order. With one set of animals you could have one person start at each position chickens, pigs, turkeys, Rams. The important thing is that you go to the correct next target: chickens to pigs, pigs to turkeys, turkey to Rams, Rams to chickens…

Shoot what you have, do the best you can, just shoot and have fun. Keep us updated. It's always good to see clubs starting silhouette!

Dustin
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by fartsinpublic »

Our IHMSA range uses C-channel steel with the animals on the top of the "C", held on by clothespins, to stop them blowing off in the wind. The steel is about 11' long, allowing around a foot between each 3/8 animal. We share the cease fire moments with the folks shooting the steel plates and knock-down targets on rails, so we shoot two animal distances (four mags of 5 rounds) then go reset and move on to the next pair of distances. It works out that we always go near-far, but I haven't had to start on rams and go to chickens.

Also being a new rookie, I can share what attracted me to it.

I bought my first rimfire rifle last September, and thought it would be fun to shoot off a bench. I quickly realized that I don't have the budget for what seems like "block/bag your rifle in some heavy expensive rest, put a 40x scope on ot, then gently reach under and lightly touch the trigger. Repeat 4 more times. Cuss at flyers. Get up, fart, clean barrel, do it all over again. Go home after five groups of five rounds within 0.34592" of each other and promise to do better next time." (Pretty sure I just offended a bunch of Benchrest shooters, but there ya go. It is what it is. #:-s )

The silhouette shooters just seemed to have an inviting yet challenging setup, where learning your rifle, ammo and the wind, stance, etc., seemed to be more important than going out and getting broke with full custom everything.

I would see guys old enough to have shot rams with Moses walk up to the line with their old rimfire and a box of fifteen year old whatever, and just totally kill it at the 100 metric yards line, while standing. And they'd grin for the misses as much as the hits. They sit for a spell, then get up and knock a few more down... and I thought: I bet I could challenge myself, with the rifle I have, to try it, and keep doing better. They told me to bring my rifle over, ask questions, and have fun. A few chickens in, I was hooked. I'm now looking for a set of personal swinger targets so I can practice on the side of the range, too.

I also like that I am carrying the rifle, aiming it, and am likely the weak link in the equation; if I hit the animal, great, if not, I am to blame.

Best of luck to you. %%- %%- %%- I bet once folks start trying out the whole "shoot the animal off the rail" thing, they'll enjoy it.
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by Innocent »

Dustin,
You need to read the NRA rule book a little closer, 6.2 requires a min of 6 feet width on a firing point. While I am aware of several ranges that do not follow this rule, in smallbore/air rife that is acceptable but I have been at some HP matches in which there were rifle/load problems and I would prefer to have that little bit more space between others.

Paul,
The rule book is specific about min/max distances on the animal placement, but I have shot many matches where they are stacked, in fact there is a range that I shoot that has the turkeys behind the chickens and the rams behind the pigs for space reasons. Tough range to shoot but it is still a popular sport there.

Mary
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Re: Another Newbie

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Innocent wrote:Dustin,
You need to read the NRA rule book a little closer, 6.2 requires a min of 6 feet width on a firing point.
Mary,

I'm surprised that you haven't realized that I could not care less what the NRA rule book says about range spacing. I've yet to see the NRA deny approval of a match due to insufficient firing point space. And if it does deny approval, all the better; then no one has to mail in those annoying reporting cards.

Dustin
p14shooter
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by p14shooter »

No bantering Mary and Dustin. I don't ever expect to run a sanctioned match here. However, I always try to run matches as close to the rules as possible. A little bend here, a little bend there just so I can make sure that people come out and shoot. The spacing really does not bother me too much, it is just that I don't know how much room a shooter really needs. Time to take some rails out to the range and see what I can see. Still, some designs on how to build the banks would be helpful.

I do like t he idea of individual swinging targets. I probably would not use them for a match, but it sure would save a lot of time at the range when practicing.

I'll keep you posted on my results.
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by yankee »

Six feet between shooters is comfortable. Think that later on in the game you will get people using spotting scopes that will replace the binocular. The spotting scopes sit on tripods that have legs that spread out maybe three feet. This leaves about 2 feet for the shooter to move into position. Two shooters between your 9 foot post should work. Experiment and see.
Target spacing is a minimum of one animal spacing between animals. Spacing between the first five and the second five is not mentioned. The larger the animal the larger the space. A stick of wood painted a contrasting color can be used to separate them. Such as x x x x x I x x x x x. Some distance to definitely separate them.
Targets are sold in sets of 5 of each animal 20 total. Shooters usually call a set a group of 10 of each animal or 40 total. That way one person can shoot the first five then pause then shoot the second five.
With a set of 10 each you could have 4 shooters shooting at once, each at a different animal then they pause then shoot the second five then go reset the animals. But if unsure get 5 of each and see how it goes.
Different banks of animals such as chickens can be in front of and below pigs or turkeys or rams.
Target stands can be made many different ways. If it is a single stand that holds 5 or 10 animals it should be heavy enough that a low shot that hits the stand will not knock over the target or targets next to the one being shot at. Grader blades work good, they are hard and have enough mass to not move when hit. C channel works but needs to be heavy enough not to vibrate. For your first couple matches you could use 2x4's or 4x4's ,railroad ties work but will splinter after a while like the 2x4 and 4x4. You can weld a piece of flat stock the size of the animals foot on some rebar then drive that into the ground for each target. You could even shoot paper targets but they don't fall and fly and make that noise when you hit them.
Now, not to rain on your parade I add this. Baffled ranges usually mean they do not want projectiles to leave the range. Is a shot fired at an animal 6 inches off the ground at 40 meters going to strike the ground at 50 m then skip over the back stop, or one shot at 60m or 77m. At one place I shot I had to make deflectors behind the targets to keep bullets from wandering.
As for the rules they can be found at the National Rifle Association web site. Search for Rifle silhouette rules. All should be the same except for maybe the hunter rifle. I do not know if the Canadians have followed the NRA rules or stayed with the International rules.
In any case have fun and let people shoot what they bring that does not damage targets.
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by High Speed »

dustinflint wrote:
Innocent wrote:Dustin,
You need to read the NRA rule book a little closer, 6.2 requires a min of 6 feet width on a firing point.
Mary,

I'm surprised that you haven't realized that I could not care less what the NRA rule book says about range spacing. I've yet to see the NRA deny approval of a match due to insufficient firing point space. And if it does deny approval, all the better; then no one has to mail in those annoying reporting cards.

Dustin
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by boats »

I belong to two Silhouette clubs go about the range set up in two different ways.

One has 56 foot wide shooting house 5 bays separated by 8x8 post holding up the roof. Each bay is a little over 10' wide. We put two shooters in each of the two left and two right bays 8 on the line with official 6 foot separation. Center Bay also 10 plus we can put two and keep official separation but don't always do it. Pre register all the matches assign the left and right first, use the center for walk in's If we need to put 11 shooters on the line we can crowd 3 in the center. 4 in 10 feet is impossible.

Separation rule is a good one, get someone shooting Auto or using a spotter you need the 6 feet.

Down range we have rails for 45 targets wide each bank with plenty of separation however we do mark the banks with colored stakes to prevent mistakes. You can overlap the banks if the shooting postion is a little bit higher than the rails. Also run the rams on a high rail. Guessing our down range is 75 feet wide with plenty of room for 45 targets wide fixed swingers mid range and no crowding.

Image

We are county limited on firing times and have a 2nd match to run on that range match day. Re-setting fast we can get two full 60 shot matches in our half day Including set up and take down. Not enough time for 3. So far all pre registered shooters can shoot two matches. I would like to have a too many shooter problem.

Other club is width limited only 5 shooting positions and room for a single bank width down range limiting the line to 4 match shooters at a time. Way they get around the limited firing line is run relays all day. Just as many shooters use the narrow range it just takes longer to get everybody in. Key to running a lot of guns through the match is fast re-set. Truck going down range dropping setters off just past Chickens continuing to Rams then working back. Prompt call to the line for the next relay.

Down range it's totally overlapped, however good sight lines are available due to the high firing point. Takes a little getting used to Chickens and Pigs are fired at a downward angle.

Thing about Silhouette is you have to adapt to suit the condition. One of the attractions compared to paper target matches . Have seen a lot of solutions some better than others.

Boats
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by Jerry G »

Nice looking range boats. :-bd
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by boats »

Some way's it's too nice groumed berms spread with black mulch plenty of seperation covered firing line down range good light facing the right way and lot of wind protection. Heated bathroom house right next to it too. Nice on early cold mornings.

We shoot Small bore 3rd Sat, Lever and Pistol on the 2nd Sat 1/2 size targets. We can just get in 15 wide targets sets for 10 shooters with the 1/2 sizes

I tell our club shooters they ought to travel around some see different ranges so they can adapt when it's not so perfect

Here it is re-set for the 2nd match of the day. Ram Bash, hung on chains Iron sight single shot or lever action. It's a IMSA ram 3/8 size hung on the Turkey line which gives the same visual as a half hung at proper ram distance. Two local clubs run this one under local rules Two CF at 200 Two RF at 75 every month rain or shine. Match has been running in Virginia for longer than I can say. I first shot it in 1993 been running a long time then.

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Strikes are spotted with scopes and marked on a spotting board by the off Relay. Turn out for the Club Rule match is 3 or 4 times the NRA rules match. Might be the liberal pay out prize money almost all the entry fees. Simple equipment rule Iron Sight Single shot or Lever that's all. As you can imagine scores are high but it has never been cleaned with a Perfect 40. As non conforming rifle not eligible for prize money we let proper scoped Silhouette rifles shoot. None have ever hit it 40 times Record is 39 couple of single shots have done that.

Image

Boats
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by kevinbear »

It looks as though there are four shooting lanes, I cannot tell if there's room for two shooters per lane. Wondering if you get to use this as a dedicated silhouette range or is it multi use?
If it's only for silhouette just start on the left side with chickens and progress out going right, if you have to share the range with another discipline you could probably use two lanes to get all the targets in sight, like chickens and turkeys in the same lane and pigs and rams together. Around here they set them in railroad ties with engine valve stems as stands and pile up dirt behind them.
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p14shooter
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Re: Another Newbie

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Now I am getting somewhere. You all have given good information for me to digest.

A couple points of note. As far as I can tell with the people I have been talking with in other parts, they offically follow the NRA rules. As is has been noted in a couple posts, I will have to adapt somewhat to make things fit my range. As I doubt that anyone here will be wanting to qualify for real NRA classifications, that will not be a problem.

My range is only a 100yd (not meter) range. Yes, I have given consideration to the placement of the targets relative to the ground for richochets. We have other IPSC matches there where the potential for richochets is there, but our template is big enough to encomopass those strays.

Our range is a multi use range, but it is always closed when other matches are going on.

I have made up some "rails" that I am going to take to the range next time and screw to the backs of our target holders and see how much space I actually have. I have paper targets that I am going to use to test out differences. I have 8 bulls eye bays, but not sure how many silhouetts shooters I can get it that. I am starting to get excited and will probably be ordering my first set after my next trip to the range.
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Re: Another Newbie

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Another little useful bit of information, because you have to share your range with other people make the shooting stands by pouring concrete into 5 gallon buckets with a 36" a 4x4 standing in the center, screw a small 3/4 {8x12} piece of plywood on top with a barrel cut-out and a lip {2" trim board} on three sides. You can now roll these out of the way when your not shooting silhouette, the ones at my club serve as multi-purpose stands, set your ammunition on top, lean your gun up against it, and the concrete doesn't come all the way to the top of the buckets so each stand is also a small trash can for 22 boxes and empties. Next time I'm out I'll take a few pictures.
Last edited by kevinbear on Sat Jun 14, 2014 7:10 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Another Newbie

Post by dustinflint »

p14shooter wrote: My range is only a 100yd (not meter) range.
One of our local ranges is 100yds. We shoot at 40m, 60m, 77m and 100yds. It works out fine.

Dustin
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