Which .22 for silhouette?

LH2 · Post by **LH2** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:25 am

Glad I found this forum!

I want to get started at smallbore silhouette and have narrowed it to several rifles.

I'd prefer to buy American-made, but I hear the most praise for the CZ & Anschutz.

Not sure if the Savage MkII BV and Anschutz HB will work in the hunter class due to the bull barrel. I want to start out in hunter class though.

CZ452 - Good value, accurate, heavy factory trigger.

Anschutz 1416 - Best trigger in the bunch, reputation for accuracy, but most expensive at around $600.

Remington 504 - Better trigger than CZ, but costs more. I do like the fact it's American made.

Savage MkIIBV - Lowest price, American made, laminate stock, and I've heard the Accutrigger is pretty good.

Ruger 77/22 - I've always liked Ruger handguns, but have heard mixed reports on 77/22's accuracy. Good customer service & American made.

Opinions & experience with any of these rifle appreciated - thanks!

dave imas · Post by **dave imas** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:46 am

LH2,
there are a number of rifles that aren't on your list that are predominant on the typical firing line and a number of rifles on your list that i've not seen on the firing line or only rarely. You haven't included the Sako Finnfire or the Anschutz 1700 series rifles... or the Remington 541/581 rifles. Have you been going to matches and looking about to see what folks are shooting? If not, it is a good idea. Arizona is chock full of extremely successful and experienced shooters that will be more than happy to guide you in your efforts, and i'm sure, allow you to try their equipment. That said, if $600 makes your eyes pop the CZ 452 is an excellent way to go. Lots of happy CZ shooters around.

We always say come with what ya got and we mean it. Just get to the match, we don't care what you are shooting. But when it comes to buying specifically for the game you want to get the best equipment you can afford so you don't have to go out and spend your money again in a short period of time. Better equipment also tends to hold its value. You don't have to break the bank... the CZ falls in to the "good equipment" category. good luck.
dave imas

slowstdy · Post by **slowstdy** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 12:41 pm

Hi LH2
I go along with everything that Dave said. I started with a Ruger 77/22 and had no problems with accuracy, the trigger was creepy and notchy, but very useable, the gun was very ammo picky, but did shoot the cheep stuff very well, ended up using Winchester Dynapoints and RWS Rifle Target. I now shoot Anschutz 1700 Eley ammo. If you have a .22, use that for the time being, more important when you start, is having a scope you can rely on and good sight settings. IMO.

genphideaux · Post by **genphideaux** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 3:23 pm

Welcome LH2,

The CZ 452 american is a great choice, and an adjustable trigger is avaliable from brownell's check it out
http://www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/store/ ... TABLE+SEAR
May need the light spring also
There is also a kit built by a Brooky over on this forum http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/, just do a search, all in all a good deal

But do the math 452 cz american normal 375 plus 75 trigger = 450 resale 300, loss of 150
Anschutz 1416 no need for trigger mod, 600 resale 550-600 depending on how much they go up this year, no loss
Anschuts 1710 or 1712 no need for trigger mod, 1400 resale that or more, possible profit, just remember your results may vary

All this said I still agree with Dave, buy the best you can afford, spend that dollar once,if you do a litte looking you can sometimes find a good deal on the auction sites.

LH2 · Post by **LH2** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 9:38 pm

dave imas wrote:LH2,
there are a number of rifles that aren't on your list that are predominant on the typical firing line and a number of rifles on your list that i've not seen on the firing line or only rarely. You haven't included the Sako Finnfire or the Anschutz 1700 series rifles... or the Remington 541/581 rifles. Have you been going to matches and looking about to see what folks are shooting? If not, it is a good idea. Arizona is chock full of extremely successful and experienced shooters that will be more than happy to guide you in your efforts, and i'm sure, allow you to try their equipment. That said, if $600 makes your eyes pop the CZ 452 is an excellent way to go. Lots of happy CZ shooters around.

We always say come with what ya got and we mean it. Just get to the match, we don't care what you are shooting. But when it comes to buying specifically for the game you want to get the best equipment you can afford so you don't have to go out and spend your money again in a short period of time. Better equipment also tends to hold its value. You don't have to break the bank... the CZ falls in to the "good equipment" category. good luck.
dave imas

Thanks for the replies everybody!

Dave - I included the bolt rifles I could think of up to $600. If there are some others I should look into please let me know. I started out thinking since $600 would get me the Annie 1416 that'd be the upper price limit. But I'm starting to re-think that limit.

So it sounds like the CZ is regarded as a terrific value. Is that because it's more accurate than anything else out there at the $300 or so price point? I know it's a popular rifle with the Rimfirecentral crowd, and a Brooks trigger kit sounds like a must have.

Do most people prefer the wood-stocked CZ American to the synthetic stock Silhouette/Style models? I guess the extra weight is nice?

I have not attended a match here in AZ. My only .22 rifle is a Remington 597 semiauto with iron sights. I don't want to spend the money to scope it when I could put that money toward a bolt rifle & glass. I guess I could enter a match for fun with iron sights, but it'd be humbling.

So I guess I can expect to spend $300+ on a good quality scope for whatever rifle I choose, right? Should new shooters start out with a Vari-X rather than a fixed power? Seems the fixed may be frustrating to try to hold steady starting out, and would make it easier to shoot the wrong animal.

If I want something American and under $1K, with a good trigger, what's out there? Kimber? Remington/Ruger/Browning with some trigger work?

dave imas · Post by **dave imas** » Sat Jan 28, 2006 11:36 pm

well... i hate to say this but the best rifles you are going to buy at $1000 or less are probably going to be made elsewhere. Between the Anschutz and Sako it is tough to get better. The remington 40x rifles are extremely good but, i believe, more expensive. Don't know how much a Briley is... Coopers are extremely expensive and not worth the money. The remington 541 is an extremely fast action which has been and continues to be used as the foundation for custom rifles. You might find one used. I had a CZ for a short while that i shot with iron sights. It was enjoyable. clean trigger, nice action, accurate. decent off-hand stock. Fit and finish was more than acceptable. Lots of folks love them for good reason.

Regarding scopes... my girlfriend is quick stepping her way towards AA with a Bushnell Banner 6 x 18. All i can say is so far so good... when she gets out of AA we'll get her a better scope but, for the moment, it seems to be doing her justice. I think i paid about $185 for it. for folks starting out i recommend a variable scope so they don't have to go out keep buying another as they get better skills. after 23 years of shooting this game i'm using a 6 x 24 scope on 16x. you'll find most of the top shooters use scopes in the 20x - 36x range. 24x being very popular.

genphideaux · Post by **genphideaux** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 6:44 am

LH2,

If you want american that is in prodution today, I'll just say I took a 504 remington and tested it with the orginal barrel, only thing it would shoot is CCI minimag, went to a Lilja barrel and now it shoots great, but I suspect if I added up I have at or over $1000 in it. Trigger is adjustable and the action is good. Kimber as of late from the examples I have been around are at best hit and miss, the old out of prodution 82c's have been great shooters. I have a ruger 77/22 that was built by Bobby Pitchford and it will stay up with the 1710 annie as far as accuracy, well over $1000, never shot well in original configuration, why I do not shoot it in this sport is a long bolt throw, sounds petty at first, but after a couple of thousand it is annoying.

To answer the CZ silhouett vs american the sil uses a barrel bolt and one action screw to tighten down the action, the american uses two screws in the action like most rifles, some feel the barrel should be free floated and so the sil is out, have shoot and modded both, sil is a little to light, american shot well and was still a smidge light but more in line with the weight than the sill, also the sil stock can be flexed easily not a good thing.

So to wrap this up if you want american below $1000 short list, without mods

kimber 82c, or a new one used if you have seen proven groups at 100meters
Rem 541s/t or a 514 same action I believe
Repro winchester/browning 52b(just check the weight some are to heavy)
Rem 504(if you buy it right, I'd say below $500 so you can change the barrel)

Just my .02 cents

eeleater · Post by **eeleater** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:41 am

I just voted for the CZ.

No, it is not made in the US. Much as it pains me to say this, the best rifles and ammunition are not made in this country. Clearly the Anchutz rifles dominate in silhouette, as does Eley ammo. The Federal ammo no longer made was its equal if not better.

One of the reasons I voted for the CZ was so you would have more money to spend on the scope. Silhouette take much more than an an accurate rifle- it takes one with a trigger that allows you to know when the gun is going to fire. It also demands a scope with repeatable settings and- in my opinion- a DOT you can easily see. Not crosshairs.

Like almost everyone else I started off with crosshairs. Firing a few shots after a match with friends gun showed me the light! I currently am practicing with an air-rifle with a scope with crosshairs. I had planned to have Premier boost it and put in a dot- but they just stopped doing the boosts, and from looking at the web site today it looks like the cost of a dot will be $100 if they will just do one, and $124 if they have 3 dot minimum like they were saying a few weeks ago.

I believe the dot works better as it gives you one thing to look at- not two as you have with the crosshairs. Though some others will not agree- I believe you will do better focusing on the dot, not the target itself. I base this on having tried it both ways. What I do is first make sure I am on the right bank (high magnification has its disadvantages). I then check and adjust my natural point of aim. If this is good I put my finger on the trigger and take up the first stage while starting to shift my focus from the target to the dot- and pause my breathing. I often then find the dot moves to the animal and if I am psychologically ready the trigger gets pulled. Often this occurs before I am ready and I then wait until it "drifts" back on. If this does not happen with in a few seconds I should start breathing again and start over- but it is very easy to hold the position and hope the shot comes- and then try and force it if it does not- and often miss. (Why we do this deserves a discussion all its own.) I believe it is better to focus on the dot as it reflects the movement of the rifle in the most direct sense. If we are rotating to the right the dot is traveling to the right- but the target is moving left in the view we have through the scope. Our brain is capable of adjusting to many things- but the fewer adustments it has to make the faster it is going to be able to identify the present- and anticipate the immediate future and time the trigger pull.

My suggestion would be to look long and hard at the Busnell 4200 series scopes. For $55 they will add a 1/2 min dot to the 4X12, 4X16, 6x24 or 8X32.
The relative size of the dot goes up as the magnifcation goes down. This means with a 1/2 min dot in the 8X32 it is 1/2 min at 32X, 3/4 min at 24, 1 min at 16x and 2 min at 8x if I did my math right. The bottom line is that as the magnification goes down the dot will be too big at some point.

I prefer higher magnifications, but would suggest the 6x24 unless you know you can hold steady enough for the higher magnification.
The only relative disadvantage to the Bushnell scopes is that they have 1/8 min clicks in the 4X16, 6x24 and 8x32. You need to be careful in reviweing their web site as the generic description of the 4200 series scopes comes up with every scope and indicates 1/4 min clicks- even though the specs for the scope show 1/8 min clicks!

Shootndig · Post by **Shootndig** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 3:55 pm

Might as well put my .02 worth in. First of all, welcome to the sport. Its addictive, frustrating, challenging, interesting, maddening, and incredibly fun! Not to mention that you will meet some really great people along the way. As far as equipment goes it looks like you are on the right track. I agree with pretty much everything posted so far. If it were me, given the budget you outlined earlier, heres what I would go with and why. To start out with a rifle pick up a CZ452 American and either throw in a Brooks trigger kit or an adjustable from Brownells. Check your bedding & barrel channel, break it in, and go shoot. Spend most the rest of your budget on the best scope you can afford- Bushnell 4200, Sightron 6-24 S2, Weaver T series, maybe a used Leupold (about the only scope I would buy used). Spend the a few bucks and seriously try out some good ammo, different brands, see what groups consistently. Most of the rifles will shoot way better than the shooter given the right ammo. None will shoot worth a hoot without a decent, reliable scope. The only caveat here is if you can spend more on the rifle to startout with. The only reason I can see to go with 77/22 or a 504 (in that order) is that you can rebarrel it (yourself, for about $350) if it doesnt shoot well enough. If you can swing an Anschutz 1700 series or a Sako do it-- it seems most people end up there sooner or later, but you have to have a good scope no matter what.
If you start with a CZ, Ruger, or Remington, it will serve you well until you are ready to upgrade. When you do upgrade you will have a fine plinking/ everyday .22.
Just my opinion--but I wish I had done it that way!
Good luck!

LH2 · Post by **LH2** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 5:10 pm

To start out with a rifle pick up a CZ452 American and either throw in a Brooks trigger kit or an adjustable from Brownells. Check your bedding & barrel channel, break it in, and go shoot.

Not sure how to go about checking bedding & barrel channel, but I'll figure that out later. I guess you mean see that the barrel is free floated?

What's the consensus on the CZ453 with the single set trigger? Would that eliminate the need to modify as on the 452?

On the Rem 504, am I to believe that the stock barrel just doesn't have what it takes?

Of the rifles I've listed, which ones have the fastest lock time, and how important is lock time to a new shooter?

eeleater - thanks for the info on dot versus crosshairs and scopes in general. I'm thinking 6x24. Just need to find the best deal on a Bushnell, Sightron, etc. Aren't the Weaver T-series fixed power scopes?

Does Burris make anything worth a look?

Thanks to all, lots of info to digest here.

Shootndig · Post by **Shootndig** » Sun Jan 29, 2006 9:01 pm

LH2-
Sorry-you did say variable,didn't you? Weaver T series are fixed power.
I believe Weaver Grand Slams have Micro-Trac and sort of a finger adjustable turret. I have used a couple of Burris target scopes - one would repeat settings well, the other never did track reliably. Burris used to tend to be a heavy scope, somewhat problematic if you are crowding the weight limit in Hunter.
As far as checking the bedding & barrel channel, you are correct. I always take a new rifle apart and look at the mating surfaces between the action and the stock (you'd be surprised what you sometimes find). Virtually all my rifles are free floated, but I have seen a few that preferred a pressure point. However I've never seen one that shot well with excessive stock pressure (more than a few pounds) or with uneven pressure-say from one side. Whether you would want to go as far as glass or pillar bedding is up to you. I have guns that are and aren't -it depends on the gun. Thats probably a topic for a different thread anyway.
As for the 504 - haven't shot one yet, but then I haven't seen anyone shooting one to mooch off of either. By rights, it should be a good silhouette rifle. I can't say the barrel isn't up to it as any of them can have an occaisional bad barrel (or exceptionally good barrel for that matter) I just meant that if you choose to upgrade a 77/22 or a 504, you can install a Lilja or Shilen(?) yourself (no gunsmithing required, just a go/nogo guage thats about $20). I would only go that route if you loved the rifle and were sure it was the barrel that was causing the problem. But its nice to have that option.

genphideaux · Post by **genphideaux** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 7:18 am

LH2,

The stock 504 barrel is a 1-14.5 twist, this is the same twist they used on the 40x, from all the testing I did(look for my posts on rimfire) it just did not measure up to my standards. I have worked on a total of seven now that belong to other shooters, some think it is fine, some change the barrel, your results may vary.

Fastest lock time is supposedly the 541, but there is a camp that will argue dwell time in the barrel is more important, for me if I pull the trigger offhand, and the bullet hits where the dot is, must be working. Now I just need to get the dot on the animal.

This sport is a journey, not a destination, enjoy the ride

Jetmugg · Post by **Jetmugg** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 10:26 am

When considering the CZ 452's, don't overlook the Varmint model. The weight is about 7lbs without sights, has a nice hefty barrel that still qualifies for SB Hunter class, and has a straight comb stock.

SteveM.

Shootndig · Post by **Shootndig** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 2:51 pm

LH2-
Don't know exactly how to answer your question about the CZ453 w/ a set trigger. The rule on the hunter class rifles calls for a 2lb. trigger pull (min.) and yes, they do check at all of the registered matches. Standard silhouette simply requires a "safe" trigger. I haven't heard how equipment check officials intend to address this. Anyone else know?

powding · Post by **powding** » Mon Jan 30, 2006 3:04 pm

I have checked rifles for matches for eight years and the only rifle I ever rejected was one that fired on closing the bolt. The owner stated he used a "soft touch" and actually demonstrated it to me, however, as not only the match director but also the RSO I rejected the rifle. He made an adjustment, I checked it again and all was OK. Later, he told me it had not done that until that day.

Because of the "safe" wording it is a judgement call by the officials. I would rather be overly cautious at the risk of upseting someone than be responsible for a misfire on the line.

powding