38-72 Winchester

Front-stuffers, smoke-belchers and .22 BPCR!
Post Reply
User avatar
DanDeMan
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:38 am

38-72 Winchester

Post by DanDeMan »

Boats,

As I've said, I've been shooting 10-twist 38-72's for about 10 years in BPCR silhouette, mid-range, long-range and long-range gong matches. It is a do-everything cartridge when a 10-twist barrel is used. Recoil is mild, accuracy is excellent and performance in the wind superb when the proper bullet is designed and used.

If you Google "Dan Theodore & 38-72 Winchester" you should find some stuff out there. I wrote a few articles about the cartridge, but they are on a crashed hard drive.

Here's a diagram of the reamer I designed back in 2003 to start the discussion.

Image
Cheers,

Dan Theodore
User avatar
DanDeMan
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:38 am

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by DanDeMan »

Boats,

I found one email I sent to a friend about how to form 38-72 brass and load ammo.
====================================================================
Here's the only die set to order:

http://www.buffaloarms.com/38_72_Win_RC ... x?CAT=4042

Process for forming 38-72 brass from Hornady’s 405 Winchester brass.

1. Run your press ram all the way up and then screw the FL die all the way to the top of the shell holder and back it off 2 revolutions.

2. Very lightly lube a piece of brass.

3. Size the brass about 1/2 way.

4. Remove the brass from the shell holder and wipe off any accumulation of lube in the neck transition area that is now forming. If you don't, you will dimple the neck due to too much lube. Now finish sizing the piece of brass.

5. Trim the piece of brass to about 2.580" so the mouth will not hang-up in the chamber from being too long. This sacrificial case is used to set the FL die for minimum sizing.

6. Try to chamber the brass. It should not chamber quite yet
.
7. Screw in the die body 1/4 turn, resize and try to chamber the brass.

8. Repeat this process until the brass just chambers and comes out easy. When the brass is getting close to chambering go to 1/8 turn increments as the objective is to minimally size the brass for an excellent fit in the chamber. By doing this you will eliminate the need to fire-form the brass and be able to go straight to load testing.

I strongly recommend the following concerning loading for the 38-72 and 38-70 after thousands of rounds fired in testing and even more in matches. A fellow top BPCR shooter has been working on his new 10-twist 38-72, but did not listen completely to my recommendations. His results have NOT been satisfactory yet. During each conversation we've had over the past month he has repeatedly reported doing something I told him not to do with the expected less than stellar results. I wish you better success.

1. Use Federal Match Large Pistol primers.

2. Use an over-primer-wad: Punch out 0.008" thick wads (I use water color art paper that can be found in most office supply stores in the art section). Use a 45-cal wad punch for this operation. I fold a sheet of the paper so that every punch produces 8 wads. Place a wad in the shell-holder of your priming tool, slide the case over the wad and punch the primer through the paper so the over-primer-wad is in the primer pocket on top of the primer. This also backs the LP primers out to where a LR primer would be.

3. Use only Swiss 1.5 powder; between 68 and 72 grains depending on bullet and loading technique: slip-fit vs neck-tension.

4. Use a 0.060" LDPE. It must not be below the neck-shoulder junction.

5. For slip-fit bullets use between 30 and 60 thou compression. Once the compression goes much over 60 thou you will get lots of vertical from MV variation. Don't even bother to try. And, don't seat the bullets out so far that the chambering operation pushes the bullet back into the case more. The rounds should chamber with just a little thumb pressure with the bullet seated out as far as possible.

6. For neck-tension use 0.002" NT, zero powder compression and a 0.060" LDPE that is no more that 0.002" in diameter larger than the base band of the bullet. If the diameter of the wad is too large you might get case stretching.

7. Properly cleaning the cases after each firing is a must.

8. Properly annealed cases, after each cleaning, work best.

I have gotten the best accuracy using 2 thou neck-tension. Slip-fit has also delivered excellent accuracy, but I'm looking for the best accuracy possible so have gone to using neck-tension.

Hope this helps and let me know how your progress goes.
Cheers,

Dan Theodore
boats
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:59 am
Location: Virginia

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by boats »

Dan thinking about a Long Range rifle on the CPA action. I have two CPA's one a pure Schuetzen 32/40 & .22 LR another set up for BPCS 20 odd years ago in 38/55 also with a .22 Barrel. We don't shoot much BPCS Silhouette around here but do have a lot of club competition offhand using single shots. Schuetzens not allowed so use the 38/55 with good results

I would go for a 3rd CPA built to suit the LR rifle rules, no need to conform to the BPCS rule, if shooting mid-range matches would use the 38/55. Paper targets, knock down not a consideration, It's reliable to 600 with mild recoil. Thing I am most interested in is bullet performance, velocity drift recoil etc. 38's vs. 40's and the more common 45/90's Everybody I know uses 45/90's but If I can avoid 45/90 Recoil it would be a good thing. I am leaning toward a long case 40 but thought I would get some input on 38's

CPA has set up some 38/72's for un-named "Experienced West Coast Riflemen"

Boats
User avatar
DanDeMan
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:38 am

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by DanDeMan »

Boats,

I'm currently working with a new 40-72 Winchester Browning Highwall. It is my second 40-72. The first had a 13-twist, chromoly, Lilja barrel screwed to a Steve Earl Wesson # 1. I shot my highest 900 and 1,000 yard scores with that rifle; a 97-5x and 94-2x respectively down at Phoenix. The current 40-72 has a 14-twist, stainless steel barrel by Douglas. Going stainless for BPCR's is the only way to go. I'll not bore you with the details other than to say I'll never have another chromoly barrel again. And, I've got a number of converts that feel the same. Stainless barrels can be "blued" so they look like the typical BPCR. Douglas made a special run of 8 land & groove barrels for me and several buddies. The barrel has 0.040" wide lands and 0.120" wide grooves to minimize base distortion, the steering part of the bullet once it takes flight.

The 40-72 is an oh so easy to load for BPCR cartridge. And, one just opens a box of 405 Winchester brass manufactured by Hornady and starts load-testing. The original BP round, the 40-72, has the same body dimensions as the 405 Winchester. When that smokeless round came out, Winchester made the rim thicker and larger in diameter so the 46,000 PSI round could not be loaded into an old 40-72. A 405 factory round would surely burst the mild steel barrels on the old 40-72's.

Here's a link to one of my 40-72 threads. I'm hpguy420 on the Shiloh site and one of my companies is called DanTDesigns. You'll see that on reamer and bullet prints.

http://www.shilohrifle.com/forums/viewt ... =5&t=19942
Cheers,

Dan Theodore
boats
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:59 am
Location: Virginia

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by boats »

Thanks some nice looking bullets, Whats the comparision.

Lets Say 425 gr 40 launched at ? MV and 38 bullet about 375 grs launched at ? MV Are they typical weights 40 & 38 How fast do most of the long cases cartidges launch Any idea of recoil on a 14 lb rifle eithe one ?

Boats
User avatar
DanDeMan
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:38 am

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by DanDeMan »

Boats,

When using a recoil calculator to determine a BP round's recoil, we should do the following.

1. Cut the powder weight in half.
2. Use that powder weight for the recoil calculator.
3. Add that same weight to the weight of the bullet.

We must do the above because about half of the powder weight is ejected from the barrel along with the bullet.

If we have a 14 lb rifle and both the 38-cal and 40-cal bullets are launched to 1,400 fps we find that the 38-72 will require 74.0 grains of Swiss 1.5 when launching a 375-gr bullet and 82.0 grains of Swiss 1.5 to launch a 425-gr, 40-72 bullet. Calculated recoils are:

38-cal = 12.3 ft-lbs
40-cal = 16.2 ft-lbs

In contrast, a 45-90 flinging a 540-gr bullet to 1,350 fps with 92-grs of Swiss 1.5 produces 23 ft-lbs of recoil.

I've been shooting both the 38-72 and 38-70 (same powder capacity) for years with considerable success in long-range matches. My current 38-70, long-range rifle has a 30" long, 1.25" diameter barrel that rides the cross-sticks very well indeed. Long, skinny barrels bounce badly when fired prone off cross-sticks. And, go stainless, don't even think about chromoly.
Cheers,

Dan Theodore
boats
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 626
Joined: Sun Dec 02, 2007 6:59 am
Location: Virginia

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by boats »

Thanks Dan thats just what I wanted to know. That 40-72 looks like the one for me. Lot less recoil than 45's bit more than 38's. I suspect the 40-72 is easier to work with too. I never liked the 40/65 for a CPA action, it fits but better to use a smaller head case.

Also agree 100 % long skinny barrels are not the way to go. 30 inches does fine

Boats
User avatar
DanDeMan
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 327
Joined: Sat Jan 19, 2008 2:38 am

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by DanDeMan »

Boats,

After experimenting with, doing load development for and using in matches many different BPCR cartridges, the 40-72 is the most flexible and easy to load for, IMHO. I've gotten excellent accuracy using very mild loads, 400-gr bullets launched to 1,210 fps (accurate, mild silhouette and mid-range load,) all the way to driving a 466-gr bullet to 1,360 fps for long-range work.

Below is a recommended reamer design for the 405 Hornady brass. The design is for barrels with 0.400"/0.408" bore/groove diameters. Bullet design depends on twist selected. The chamber reamer was designed to use tapered bullets for long-range work so they can be seated out further for increased powder capacity. Lighter bullets with all driving bands at groove-plus-0.001" (0.409") allow the bullet to be seated deeper into the case to suck-up case capacity. Also, the reamer will cut what I call a moderately tight chamber. The guys that have chambered rifles with this reamer design have reported excellent accuracy. As a matter of fact, one of my Aussie buddies just had a 40-72 rifle built that has a Ron Smith, gain-twist, stainless steel barrel that finishes at a 13-twist. This week he reported MOA groups at 300 meters during some more initial testing and his last match with it was quite successful. Some of the Aussies that frequent this sight might know him, Bruce Moulds.

Image
Cheers,

Dan Theodore
User avatar
Taps
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:23 pm
Location: Bogan Gate NSW Australia

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by Taps »

G'day from the Game Ranch

Dan, I haven't met your mate Bruce but you could let him know that there will be a BPCR Silhouette match at Majura A.C.T on the 22nd of January.

Taps
Taps
the ex pom
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 162
Joined: Mon Oct 27, 2008 3:59 am

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by the ex pom »

I know Bruce shot with him and his new gun last month, he seemed to have a small recoil problem when the rear sight smashed his nose a bit. Luckily he didnt develop a flinch :) I doubt we will see him in the ACT Taps
348 winchester,teach them chickens a lesson, when a girls gun will not do. Man up with a steel buttplate!!!!!
deadeye dave
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 4:25 am
Location: D'oh Tassie

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by deadeye dave »

Taps said, "Dan, I haven't met your mate Bruce but you could let him know that there will be a BPCR Silhouette match at Majura A.C.T on the 22nd of January."

Taps, I reckon that if anyone shows up for that shoot on the 22nd Jan they will be a day late, according to the Journal that shoot is after the Early Australia Day Shoot on Mon the 21st Jan and they reckon us Tasmanians are always a day late :) :) :)

cheers

Deadeye
User avatar
Taps
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 187
Joined: Fri Jan 23, 2009 7:23 pm
Location: Bogan Gate NSW Australia

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by Taps »

Thanks for that Dave, I actually turned the page of the calender to get the date , !st page of the 2012 calender again!!! Maybe I should go back to the optometrist :-B
Taps
deadeye dave
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 36
Joined: Mon May 31, 2010 4:25 am
Location: D'oh Tassie

Re: 38-72 Winchester

Post by deadeye dave »

Dan, pleasure to be able to help a fellow Aussie ;) ;)

cheers

Deadeye
Post Reply