2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

More expensive to feed, but worth it.
MetalMisser
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:42 pm

2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by MetalMisser » Wed Jun 01, 2016 3:26 pm

Any further word regarding what happened at the 2016 AZ State high Power rifle Championship where two experienced Masters on the jury got caught benefiting them selves in a protest so they could win? The NRA overturned the findings. Just found this on www.riflesilhouette.com (how I was cheated sub head). What's up next????

User avatar
cslcAl
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 959
Joined: Wed Dec 07, 2005 4:15 pm
Location: Montoursville, Pa.
Contact:

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by cslcAl » Wed Jun 01, 2016 6:21 pm

Interesting!

Al Foust
Sierra Silhouette Rep.

Jerry G
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 2699
Joined: Wed Apr 12, 2006 2:34 pm
Location: Casa Grande, AZ

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jerry G » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:24 am

From the rule book.

3.11 Gloves -
Gloves may not be worn except when required for warmth. :-??

mshelton
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 16
Joined: Tue Sep 29, 2015 7:54 am

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by mshelton » Thu Jun 02, 2016 6:52 am

So who ended up being state and resident champion?

MetalMisser
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by MetalMisser » Thu Jun 02, 2016 11:14 am

Went back and re read that website entry a couple more times--while long it really is worth anyone who shoots silhouette to read.

Rule 11.2.1 talks about shooters on a jury who benefit from being on it must not be on it--two of the three members on that jury were apparently intimately involved and DIRECTLY benefited greatly-they openly violated the rule but finally got caught by the NRA.

Rule 3.11 For what it is worth an archery "glove" is not really a glove as the rules intend and sort of define. An archery "glove" fits over a finger tip, just called a glove--semantics. But the guy says he should have asked since he had a hurt finger and used the "glove" it to apparently protect it--then again even if approved by a match director, nasty folks can always protest the match director's decision regardless and the games begin...

Rule 16.3 also applies and was also violated that rule MEANS potential rule violations must be reported immediately-you can't wait to see if a possibly violating competitor wins and then protest--that is just bad sportsmanship!

The story-long about that disaster and wrong doing is on www.riflesilhouette.com (see upper left side: re cheated). There is a politically correct soft worded NRA HQ finding at the end and reversal of the jury-but the guy really got wrongly screwed over.

User avatar
Jim Beckley
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1156
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Cave Creek, Arizona

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim Beckley » Fri Jun 03, 2016 1:27 am

I was one of the three jury members. As with all jury's I was appointed not volunteered. That isn't the first time Jerry has been caught cheating at a big match. But that isn't posted on his web site is it?
U.S. Army-Donating blood since 1775.

glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by glen ring » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:47 am

Drama

I'll be shooting my first HP Silhouette match at Raton during the nationals. I have read the rule book and hope I don't break any rules. I'll be wearing a cup. That's not addressed in the rules , so feel free to come check it out and correct me if need be. I figured I need a cup the way everyone publicly busts each others balls about Highpower Silhouette. Seriously though, for just a moment....I will be on vacation. I want to enjoy this vacation. I like to shoot FOR FUN while on vacation. If you are part of the cranky old white guy crowd please stay at least 10 yards from me. That's my no DRAMA zone.
Just Be Nice **==

MetalMisser
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by MetalMisser » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:50 am

Re the previous Beckley remarks defending his cheating while on a jury.

Anyone can turn down being on a NRA Jury--it is always a volunteer situation--always. It is not forced as you portray it. You justify YOUR NOW OBVIOUS CHEATING and resentment against the otehr shooter by overtly and knowingly violating a key NRA rule about fairness on a jury and which is just common sense - basically says If YOU can benefit from being on a jury-if you can or will you should not be one it! Both you (apparently a long time Master class shooter) and the other long time Master knew this--it is in the rule book!

I guess you justify and NOW try to defend by your statements here and by inference the other long time Master level shooter have just admitted to in your post. Then you both and a third guy got caught at by the NRA HQ. Your inference in your post on this site YOU CHEATED because the other guy cheats but the other guy has NOT been caught at it yet sounds like my my five year old when he tries that type of childish argument. Your opinion on this site is more than enough proof to show your intent to harm the other shooter in a state championship. Wow!

This kind of behavior is so childish and stupid and crooked I simply am not going to comment or rebut on any other posting--just incredible behavior, the NRA and your fellow shooters should work to clean this up with you and the other two Master level shooters especially the one other which like you benefited greatly from knocking this guy out of the competition using your jury as the weapon!

User avatar
OldRanger
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 958
Joined: Thu Jun 06, 2013 9:00 am
Location: Missoula, MT
Contact:

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by OldRanger » Fri Jun 03, 2016 3:56 pm

Well I know Dave Bonner and I wouldn't call him a cheater. I would say he was wrong here and shouldn't have been on the jury tho. But I think the NRA should have upheld the jury's decision since he did wear a glove.

Also I wonder how he gets away with wearing 3p shooting boots. I would challenge that every match since its pretty clear in the rules that you can't wear them since they are stiffened and help the shooting position.

Sounds like a bunch of folks were wrong. Hope there is none of that drama up here at the iron man.

One more thing. Metalmisser aren't you the one that cheated at nationals 2 years ago and illegaly dropped down from master to AA without the NRA's permission? Just checkin ;)
If she's yelling "Pineapple Congress Philadelphia Pogo-Stick" She probably forgot the safe word.

glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by glen ring » Fri Jun 03, 2016 5:57 pm

Obviously you boys/girls are soliciting anyone's opinion by publicly posting this so...

I Have read all that I can find on this. Correct me if I'm wrong.

Ole boy was wearing an archery glove in a rifle match. ( why ?)
No one noticed ole boy doing this.
Match director/ range officers should have.
No one filed a protest until ole boy was winning...according to ole boy.
Ole boy was disqualified and someone on the jury that did so moved up in standings.
Jury member (s) should have recused , If that's the case.

Ole boy went through the appellate process and a higher "court" overturned the lower "court's" decision.
Ole boy should have been given any due to him
Ole boy and others are now calling each other cheaters on a public forum.
Ole boy and others should contact competent counsel and settle this all in a court of law.

We have everything in place for a situation like this IF it ever happens at our range.
We kindly, gentlemanly and lady like inform anyone of a possible rule violation. That's usually all it takes.
We address any protests and call an unbiased jury together to make a decision and then inform the shooter in a gentlemanly and lady like fashion.
If our decision should be overturned we apologize to the person in a gentlemanly / lady like fashion and refund any money or prizes they might have won.

If ANYONE accuses another shooter of CHEATING we will stop the match and ask the accuser to provide written evidence that will be taken before the jury.

If the accuser refuses to precede further we will ask the accuser to leave and refund any money to them.
We then will provide the target of the allegations with a list of everyone at the match and a list of very competent attorneys to pursue the matter with.

Our matches are clean, fun, G rated , tobacco and Drama free.

Bring new shooters, children and grandchildren to shoot with us....but leave all that juvenile name calling at the gate .
Just Be Nice **==

User avatar
Bob259
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 4300
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2006 7:16 pm
Location: Phoenix, AZ

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Bob259 » Fri Jun 03, 2016 6:32 pm

Lets be clear, the shooter that was disqualified was awarded his trophy after the NRA petition committe overruled. So he did get awarded his scores and trophy.
F Troop - Southwest Outpost

Proud Member of the Ram Slammers US Division (Two Bob)

ImageImage
NRA Benefactor Life Member

MetalMisser
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by MetalMisser » Sat Jun 04, 2016 9:34 am

Okay one last re this matter. ref your Master AA thing--nope not me. Besides lowering in a classification don't know how one drops down if they should not without someone somewhere knowing about it like fellow shooters, competitors and the NRA, especially at the nationals--you can bet someone would have certainly protested. Try hard to stay on subject of this post as a discussion--I know it may be tough for you.

Re the real business on this posting thing in Arizona--it is really simple--the jury cheated-they knowingly violated the primary rule and the more I look at what was written and what the NRA said it appears all three of these guys on the jury have a ton of experience and know the rules--besides ignorance of the rules is no excuse and using them as a weapon is just flat out CS! And the one guy's posting who made it sound like he was forced to be made it soun like revenge for other not proven incidences--NOT good. Sounds like it was revenge.

There was a guy named Conard Bernhard--he is the greatest silhouette shooter of all time--set massive national and state long run records, etc. and shot several 40s in the 1980s. He wore heavy sole boots as did many others and they still do--no big deal--sure wish footwear would help me shoot better. Attempts to divert from the facts of this post with other stuff is silly and what these jury members did which looks more and more like revenge for something and if so they outwardly cheated. How else to say it. People do this stuff--it is up to the NRA to stop it! I'm out of here.

User avatar
Jim Beckley
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1156
Joined: Tue Jan 23, 2007 7:54 pm
Location: Cave Creek, Arizona

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by Jim Beckley » Sat Jun 04, 2016 11:28 am

The bottom line is if Webster wasn't wearing a glove he wouldn't have had to face a jury. Old Ranger you are correct the NRA should have backed the jury's decision, but that isn't how the world works anymore. Metalmisser, I would love to meet you!
U.S. Army-Donating blood since 1775.

glen ring
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1084
Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by glen ring » Sat Jun 04, 2016 2:32 pm

You boys go get a room.
Just Be Nice **==

MetalMisser
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 26
Joined: Mon Oct 19, 2015 2:42 pm

Re: 2016 Arizona State Championship Controversary

Post by MetalMisser » Sun Jun 05, 2016 5:02 pm

Mr. Beckley, we might meet some day but I have one more deployment in a couple of weeks. The first rule of a jury is fairness. No matter the violation whether criminal or civil in the real world or in a game like silhouette--a jury is formed by those not involved and who are independent of any finding and certainly who do not benefit from their finding--that is a basic tenant of our country's justice system by the way. Actually in the real world when jurors are caught benefiting--it results in a trial and fines and many times imprisonment.

Both you and the other guy Bonner completely benefited 100 percent from your actions to toss his scores out so you could place first and second in the Arizona State Championship-and over such a trivial violation to boot. Let's say the guy did something big--changed the scores on the score board or whatever--you would still NOT be legitimate to rule on him because it would, as it did in your case advance your position directly in the match. Both common sense as well as the NRA rules and fairness would play here. You and Bonner the other guy knew this and still you did it and by doing that you actually committed the greater violation--you cheated to benefit yourselves but you got caught because he appealed your findings.

Your support trolls don't see that an archery fingertip glove is up to debate in the rules but being on a jury to benefit yourselves is clearly stated in the rule book. Getting your troll friends to side with you does not erase the very specific NRA jury rule you violated thus creating the much greater and plainly stated in the rule book offense.

It makes no sense to me to continue this, so I will not, actually why should I because the facts and the NRA's findings are completely laid out on http://www.riflesilhouette.com and continued contact with you over this and my recital of the rules in the rule book will not erase the simple fact that both you and the other guy overtly and intentionally cheated to benefit yourselves--you have no defense in fact.

Post Reply