Suggestions for Faster/Heavier .22 LR ammo?

22 Long Rifle ammo is finicky. Tell us all about it here.
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NewAZShooter
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Suggestions for Faster/Heavier .22 LR ammo?

Post by NewAZShooter »

On Sunday I took my new T/C pistol with .22LR match heavy barrel to our local pistol club and tried it out. I am currently shooting AA in scoped class but out of 40 shots I managed to hit 8 chick, 9 pigs, 8 turkeys and 8 rams, unfortunately 5 of the rams were ringers! So my best ever 33/40 and a AAA score (which is great for me) turned into a 28/40 in the middle of my AA class.

Now, I am happy to have performed my personal best, but bummed about those 5 ringers.

So I wonder if anyone can suggest ammo that is either heavier or faster (or both) than the Wolf M/T 40 gr. subsonic load I was using, to hit those rams a little harder? Note, our range does not allow stingers, which can damage targets.

Oh, some of those ringers were high back hits too, so clearly I needed more velocity or weight to put them down. I just bought this pistol, so I hesitate to switch to a new barrel in a heavier caliber just to overcome the ringer issue and am hoping someone has some ammo suggestions for the T/C. I also shoot a Browning BuckMark at these same targets and have had similar results in the past on the rams, even rang one turkey once. Ideas? Thanks.
~JW

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Dee
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Post by Dee »

Wow you rang a Turkey! I didn't think that was possible :shock:

Have you ever chronographed your Wolf Ammo out of your T/C? I would just guess that your not getting their advertised velocity out of a pistol due to the short barrel length and consequently not the same energy.

Even if that is the case I still find it odd you would ring them especially with high hits. Using my Daystate Harrier PCP air rifle I can just rock the 1/5th scale rams back far enough to get them to fall forward off the rail from 66 yards away, chicks, pigs and turkeys fall with ease. This is shooting a 14g .22 pellet @ 875 fps which only yields around 24 ft. lbs of energy at the muzzle. Compared to a .22 RF weighing 40g @1080 yielding around 100 ft lbs. Seems like you should still have plenty of knock down power from the pistol round based on these numbers even with a slightly reduced velocity.

Sorry I have no advice for a change in ammo but maybe going to something advertised as faster would help and while it might say 1255 fps on the box it will probably be less from a pistol.

Dee
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Post by Tlee »

In 3 years of shooting the thinner Smallbore Hunter Pistol animals (usually twice a month) I can only recall a couple of times where a thinner animal was actually hit and didn't fall (they were all turkeys or chickens that TURNED instead, remaining on their feet... I don't really consider that "a ringer"). I've HEARD of a smallbore Ram or pig that took a partial foot pad/rail hit and didn't completely get pushed off, but never a body or leg hit that didn't fall.

IMHO, those that you were shooting HAD to be the thicker Pistol Cartridge animals. I usually ring one or two of the thicker rams every match shooting a 22LR in Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever action. I have to admit, I do use the Federal 510 High Velocity though and it will take them down better than the Wolf or Eley Sport standard velocity stuff (I hit one of the thicker rams dead center 3 times in practice with Wolf one day before he fell). However, with high hits in the body or horn or even low hits in the legs, they usually fall with the high velocity 22LR... sometimes slowly, but they do fall. The thicker rams that I ring with 22LR are almost always dead center hits (or within a couple inches of it).

I think I've only ever left one of the thicker Pigs (happened just two weekends ago.... it was an edge hit under his neck), and one turkey (spun him a full turn and a half, still didn't fall)... but again, they were the thicker Pistol Cartridge thickness animals being shot with a 22LR.

my .02,

-Tim
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Post by Jason »

You mention that you don't want to go to a heavier caliber to shoot the match, so I assume you must not be just shooting the smallbore silhouette match. Is that correct? If so, you are going to be hard pressed to reliably knock down the pistol cartridge rams with a 22lr round. I can't even knock them down reliably with a 22 mag round, so I reload my own 50-grain 22 mag ammo for a lot more velocity. If you are indeed talking about shooting the pistol cartridge match with a 22lr Contender, then you shouldn't be surprised by ringing targets. I've even rung a pig or two trying to shoot that match with my 22lr Contender barrel, even when shooting Velocitors.

If you are indeed shooting the smallbore, thinner targets then your results are disappointing but I've seen others losing two or three out of ten using Wolf (or SK) ammo when the targets had a pretty stiff wind coming from behind them and the temperature was really low. Wolf seems to lose velocity (and accuracy for me) pretty quickly once them temps get below about 40 or 45. I have occasionally lost a ram (or at most two) using target velocity ammo in a smallbore cowboy rifle/hunter pistol match. That combined with the fact that the targets are so big have made me go to the Federal Automatch ammo. It's not quite as accurate, but more accurate than most "high velocity" ammo, and it has a little more velocity than target ammo. Out of our normal 10 or so shooters at our monthly cowboy/hunter pistol match, I never see more than one or two people using target velocity ammo and even those don't try it very often on the rams.
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Post by Tlee »

Jason -

I tried some of the velocitor ammo on paper a couple weeks ago and was surprised how accurate it was out of my Henry rifle. It was "on par" with the Federal 510 accuracy-wise at 40, 50, and 75 meters, but was a little BETTER than the 510s at 100m. I did find the POI to be a little higher (over an inch higher) at 40 & 50 meters, but pretty much spot on at 75 & 100m.... maybe a 1/2" higher at most.

I did shoot a practice session at animals with it, but kept shooting over the chicken, even with the FP-GR rear site bottomed out. The only chickens I hit with it were ones that I could see the bird fully over the front sight (I'm guessing those I aimed a full 1/2" low... I usually just barely cover the leg with the front site). All the other distances were close enough to my Fed510 settings that I could use them OK.

I was a little disappointed in the Velocitors when I tried them on Rams though. The hits on the Ram that would leave it standing using 510s seemed to also leave them standing using the Velocitors. Out of 8 that I hit, I left 3 standing... all those were pretty much dead center hits. About what I'd get using the 510s.

Hopefully Santa will have a 22mag lever action for me in a week so that I'll actually drop a few more in PCCLA than I do with the 22LR. Just curious... Have you ever tried the DynaPoint 45g 22Mag ammo? I tried it out of my son's contender barrel and it seemed to shoot with about the same accuracy as all the CCI & Federal 40g varieties I've sampled (I do know it's copper washed and the CCI, Federal, and other Winchester is actually jacketed ammo).

Lastly, can you share with us the details about how you're swapping out the 22mag bullets with a 50g bullets? I've heard of folks doing it but could never figure out how to do it (safely). I know that Federal makes a 50g 22mag load but it's several hundred FPS slower than the Federal or CCI 40g stuff.

Thanks,

-Tim
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Post by chickenchoker »

I once shot in a state championship that had the wind blowing from behind the targets. Folks with centered hits on rams shooting target ammo were crying the blues. Every ram I hit with eley high velocity solid went down like it did on calm days. That state champion plaque sure looks good on the wall. I didn't hit more targets, I just had more on the ground.
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Post by NewAZShooter »

To answer some of the questions, no I don't have a chrony and just bought this T/C so have not had a chance to test it for velocity. I know shorter pistol barrels (mine's 10 3/4") get less velocity than the rifle barrels. I actually went to a Tactical Solutions ten inch barrel in my BuckMark from the stock 5 incher in hopes of better accuracy with the added bonus of a bit more muzzle velocity.

The targets I shoot at in the match are not the standard .22 targets, but the only ones we have to shoot at, which are the same targets for the big 357 mags in hunter pistol. That's why getting a .22 Hornet barrel for my T/C is an option. Also, they are not set up on rails, but the pneumatically resetting kind and they seem to have a number of variables that make them not fall over with the .22s. I do not know all of those variables, but I would imagine the angle they are set to, how well lubricated the moving parts are, and other mechanical issues, even temperature changes can make them harder to topple. It was in the 50s or 60s at that last match. Also, sometimes the pneumatically raised bar doesn't drop back down and the first animal you hit rings but knocks the bar down so the rest go over. It never really mattered to me much until it cost me 5 animals and my best score ever.

Since that is all we have at our range, it's what I shoot at. I'll try that Eley HV and a few others and see if I can get any of them to shoot a good group. Maybe I'll just use the HV stuff on rams and turkeys. Oh yeah, two weeks ago we had 20mph wind hitting the backs of the rams and in practice I rang 80% of my hits. They cancelled the match. Wind from behind the animals makes it tougher still. I suppose I can just keep shooting these wrong targets with the Wolf at my local matches for practice and figure that if I go to a big match somewhere, they'll have the right targets to shoot with my .22s. But watching them go over is half the fun.
~JW

Love it when those chickens fly!

CZ 452 Silhouette
Ruger 10/22 W/ Clark Custom Barrel, B&C Anschutz Style Stock
Interarms Mark X 30.06
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T/C .22 LR, .22 Hornet
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Post by Jason »

Yep. I have tried that 22 Mag ammo and nearly all 22 mag ammo that's commonly available. None of it would take pistol cartridge rams reliably. The closest was the old CCI 50gr loads that used the Gold Dot bullets, but those were discontinued a couple years ago. My sweetest shooting cowboy rifle is my Marlin 57M in 22 Mag, but it struggled knocking the pistol cartridge rams over until a couple guys at the match showed me how to swap the powder out on the 22 Mag ammo. I start with the 50gr Federal "Classic" loads. I think the shellholder is a 25ACP shellholder and I use a collet bullet puller in 22 cal to pull the bullets. I dump out the factory powder and replace it with 7.1gr of H110, then seat the bullet with an RCBS 22 Hornet seater. You have to be careful here, as many 22 hornet seater dies won't go short enough to seat the bullets. For instance, my Lee seater die in 22 hornet won't do it but that's fine as I leave it set for reloading for my 22 Hornet barrel for the Contender. I just seat the bullets back to the factory depth and don't worry about crimping. It's not the like 22 mag is going to make them push in while they're in the tube magazine from recoil. You'll probably crush a few cases trying to get the feel of it, but it's pretty easy after that. I loaded up a couple hundred of them about a year ago and still have a lot left. I only shoot about 15 per match (5 during sight-in/practice, 10 during the match) so there's no need to do tons of them at a time. Many of the guys that I know use more powder than I do (7.2 or 7.3gr), but I've never had one take a good hit and not fall so I don't feel any need to push them more.

Like you, I used the 10" 22lr barrel on the Contender until I found a Hornet barrel. I had to keep my mindset of shooting the pistol cartridge match as "practicing for the smallbore match" to prevent getting so frustrated with ringing rams. The nice thing about ringing rams is that you can see exactly where you hit, like you have your very own set of swingers. Now that I have the Hornet barrel, I just load up 8.0gr of H110 and the 55gr bulk bullets from MidwayUSA (actually Hornady bullets reboxed) and they shoot wonderfully. They knock the rams down reliably and aren't going fast enough to damage the targets, which can be a problem for full-power Hornet loads.

As with everything, take all of this info with a warning that I don't advise anyone else to do what I'm doing as it may be dangerous, you might get killed, spontaneously change genders, burst into flames, etc...
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Post by Tlee »

Jason - Thanks for the tips on reloading the 22mag..... Just curious, any particular reason you're using H110 over something like W231, HP38, etc? The reason I ask; all the Hornet loads I've ever worked up in H110 had a heckuva muzzle blast, at least out of my 10" Contender when compared to good Hunter Pistol load using W231 or HP38. Not much more velocity and not any more accurate, just a bigger flash & report. I haven't tried any out of a rifle yet... maybe it'll burn more completely in a longer barrel.

JW - I figured those were not the smallbore animals your were ringing... When you combine the thicker targets with the resetables, I've heard the Rams can be much tougher to take down. See my last two posts in this thread for my experiences with resets:
http://www.steelchickens.com/phpBB2/viewtopic.php?t=726

-Tim
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Post by Jason »

Actually, I use it because it was recommended by everyone who showed me how to reload 22 mag rounds and was much faster than the powders that I use for rifle loads. My Contender barrel is the plain old 10" T/C barrel, too. I think it's the amount of powder in my loads that makes it not have as much muzzle blast. It's very possible that your loads might have less muzzle blast than mine, though, as I didn't try a lot of different powders before I settled on H110. It happens to be what I use for 22Mag reloads and 22 Hornet reloads, so it was easier to just have the one powder there. I'm down to less than 10 powders that I use now and if Varget keeps working so well for different rifle calibers, I might be down to less than five within a year. :)
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Post by papabear »

I have tried using the Eley Super Sillouex, it is alot faster then the regular subsonics. I actually use it to shoot smallbore pistol and it seems to work great but at $45 a brick.... I actually just use it for the rams and turkey and eley sport for the pigs and chickens. But with a bigbore target that you guys are using, your only chance is a high back or head shot, or just shoot down all chickens , pigs and turkey that will give you 30......
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Post by pistolero45 »

My recommendation would be Winchester Power Point. When I played the Hunter Pistol game, these shells hit harder than other high velocity .22 rounds. I chronographed them and they are indeed hot. Best of all, we found that Winchester Power Point was almost as accurate as standard velocity match ammo.

Winchester dropped the Power Point a couple of years ago, but it is now back. I have no idea if it is made to the same specs as before, but you may like to try it out.
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Post by NewAZShooter »

Pistolero, thanks for the suggestion. I looked around a bit online to see if I could find a deal on it and I found this:

http://www.handgunrepairshop.com/Winche ... ecall.html

Apparently Winchester is recalling certain lots of this ammo as some rounds may have dangerous double powder charges. If you're shooting it, you might want to check lot #'s on what you've got. Winchester is issuing vouchers for replacement and is requesting you ship your ammo from the bad lots to them.

Just FYI.

Be safe.
~JW

Love it when those chickens fly!

CZ 452 Silhouette
Ruger 10/22 W/ Clark Custom Barrel, B&C Anschutz Style Stock
Interarms Mark X 30.06
Browning BuckMark .22LR
T/C .22 LR, .22 Hornet
Ruger GP-100 .357 Mag
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Post by BlauBear »

NewAZShooter wrote:Apparently Winchester is recalling certain lots of this ammo as some rounds may have dangerous double powder charges.
That'd take 'em down! :shock:
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