How do you choose match ammo?

22 Long Rifle ammo is finicky. Tell us all about it here.
#57
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How do you choose match ammo?

Post by #57 »

I have a rifle that Ive shot with CCI stingers for years, and been very happy with the group size. it will do dime size at 25 yds all day and dime size at 50 if I do my part. this year Im trying out silhouettes and need a standard vel ammo. Ive tryed several match type ammos and not been impressed with there group sizes. I was comparing them at 25 yds. I found that most of the bulk ammo grouped with or smaller than the match types.[ and much cheeper.] recently I was shooting some Fed bulk at 100 yds and noticed that it opens up alot at longer ranges. should I go back and compare the match types at the longer ranges? #57
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Post by BlauBear »

There are so many variables here it's hard to know where to begin. You don't mention rifle or match ammunition types so I'll have to generalize. Two major differences between bulk ammunition and match are that match ammunition is more consistent and burns cleaner.

Stinger is not bulk ammunition, but actually pretty good quality, just against the rules because it damages targets. But if your rifle likes Stingers, the chamber is over sized by match standards and everything else is going to be a loose fit. There's no easy fix for this.

Dime size groups at 50 yards are good, but MOA (roughly an inch) performance at 100 meters are something else altogether. Lots of rifles and ammunition do well out to 77 meters and fall apart soon afterward - in fact it's hard for me to bench test past 77 because I can't see well enough for some reason, no matter scope strength or glass quality, so it's hard for me to get a get measurement. You may do better, but how does your rifle do?
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Post by #57 »

BlauBear, Im shooting a Marlin 25 that was made in 1970. the only thing Ive done to it was adjusting the triger down to 2 1/2#s. Ive tryed Rws target and subsonic, Eley club, and match, and CCI green tag. also tried Win Expert, Fed 550, and rem target. do you think I should go back and try them again at a longer distance? #57
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Post by BlauBear »

A 1970 Marlin 25 should be happier shooting standard velocity than Stingers, but, as Kitty says, it is what it is. Just avoid plated ammunition.

You might try Federal Automatch or 719, since they're both high velocity but short of the hyper-velocity that can damage targets. CCI Green Tag might also work well, but I'm a little suspicious of Eley in that vintage rifle. Others may criticize that thought and I can't defend it, it's just a suspicion.

Clean the bore between different ammunition and then take enough fouling shots that the groups settle down. This varies between rifles, with some of my rifles settling in after three shots while other want ten or more. Your Marlin may want more fouling shots because it was built for somewhat dirtier ammunition, and the fact that it likes Stinger suggest that tolerances are generous. Test at 40 meters and then at 100 meters to see what works best over all.

Accuracy and consistency become a real quest, but remember that bench rest level accuracy is unnecessary and not even useful when you're shooting off hand. Half-minute-of-ram is good enough, and your confidence and consistency in self and equipment are much more important. Even those of us that spend insane amounts of money on our rifles are really just trying to control variables, get something we're comfortable with and trust to do the same thing every time.
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Post by Jerry G »

Do all your testing at 100m. Much of the cheep ammo shoots good up close but goes to hell out past 70m. If it groups at 100, it will group at any range.

When testing ammo, clean between each different type (because they all use different lube) and foul your bbl with at least 10 before shooting a group.

Keep in mind that low velocity ammo has a better BC than the faster stuff.
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Post by BlauBear »

Jerry, I'm not so sure about testing only at 100 meters but you have a point. If it's going to fall apart past 70 meters, which a lot do, there's no point in using it. I start testing at 40 meters because that's how I know the barrel is seasoned to that round. Once groups settle in, I can proof the ammunition at 40 meters and know what it can do before moving out to 100.

Velocity starts dropping around 70 meters, and there's a lot of discussion about "transonic buffeting" with high velocity ammunition and you'll hear points and proofs both ways. The simple fact is that a lot of stuff that works well out to turkeys goes wild before reaching rams, even standard velocity stuff, so meaningful ammunition testing must include 100 meters.

Now, #57, if this conversation sounds confusing, welcome to business at usual during an afternoon at the range! Some consensus and a lot of different experience and opinions!
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Post by Bob259 »

Ditto what BB said :-)
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Post by BlauBear »

Bob259 wrote:Ditto what BB said :-)
:shock:
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Post by #57 »

BB, I went out to test today. I forgot to bring my rest, stool, and take my blood presure meds. so my shooting was off[ to say the least.] I did most of the shooting from a sitting position. the best I could get was 1 3/4 from the sitting position at 100 yds. that was with Win Expert. second best was CCI minimags. oddly enough both of these are 36grain. all of the match stuff was spread all over. most of these groups were around 2 1/2". Ill be making another trip out to try this again. #57
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Post by BlauBear »

I'd worry about the 36g having enough oomph to knock over a target, but try it - I never have. Sounds like your rifle likes being a dirty girl, so go with it. Try the Auto match just for grins and try a 40g bullet. 1.75" is pretty good.
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Post by Kevin6q »

The part of what makes match grade ammo expensive and coveted is consistency. The sub sonic speed is also less effected by wind than higher velocity ammo which does start to do weird things at around 70 meters when it transitions from super to sub sonic speeds.

Besides group sizing, you should find a consistent ammo you completely trust. A miss should be due to the shooter and not a flier or even slightly wandering bullet. You should be able to call the POI within 1/2" every time. If you can't, the group size won't matter because you don't know where you're trying to place the bullet and cannot make corrections to the sighting mechanism.

If you have blind trust in the ammo there will be no second guessing on any miss. You will also become a better shooter since any improvement in score is you and not luck of the lot of ammo.

Most ammo groups well off a bench rest. So what? All the rest proves is the bullet leaves a steady platform. Grouping offhand or prone introduces the variables you, the shooter, impart into the process of shooting. The firing pin release time, powder burn, barrel residence, recoil and the shooter follow though are different for each brand/make/model of ammo.

Finding ammo is more than running a few rounds through the barrel to foul it and see what happens before moving on. Sure, some are obviously not working too well but those showing promise need more time. I believe the shooter must shoot several hundred rounds on paper under match training conditions to see what the groups are. 20 rounds on paper tell you much more than 5 on paper. Keep shooting w/o changing the sights even if the POI is off the aiming bull. Changing the sights doesn't allow a true group to form. The idea isn't to hit the target but to see what the comb of rifle/ammo/shooter is. The more rounds you shoot, the better the trend that appears. Choose the trend created by the most consistent ammo. If you trust the ammo you can adjust for the conditions and increase the chances of hitting the targets.

I believe too often the cost of better ammo scares people away from it so they don't give it a true chance. I'm not saying inexpensive ammo won't work well in your rifle, it might for short runs. Over thousands of rounds better ammo will yield better results.

All-in-all, ammo is one of the smaller expenses of shooting budgets. Traveling to a 3 day event by airplane just once, costs more than your entire ammo budget for the year. Even heading to the match an hour from my house costs $40-50. If I use 250 rounds per event the difference between $5 and $7/box of 50 ammo is only $8. Ten matches each year is $80. If the more expensive ammo results in more fun and enjoyment due to knocking more animals off the rail I feel its worth it.

Using more expensive ammo also has me dry firing more. Dry firing is great training and free. I make less trips to the range so I save on ammo and travel costs and when I do live fire I feel I have make better progress.
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Post by Jerry G »

The range at Three Points has 1" thick animals for when it is windy. It hasn't been a problem so I would guess the 36s would take a 1/4" target.
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Post by BlauBear »

Jerry G wrote:The range at Three Points has 1" thick animals for when it is windy. It hasn't been a problem so I would guess the 36s would take a 1/4" target.
If it works, don't fix it. If a rifle shoots Win X better than match ammunition, go with it. Like Kevin says, match ammunition is more consistent, but if your rifle prefers something else enough to overcome that advantage there's not much else to say. Do try the Federal since it is more likely to lead the barrel than other better ammunition, and if your rifle likes a little fouling to sooth and tighten the bore that might be just the thing.
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Rimfire Ammo

Post by Jim Beckley »

Jerry, If you didn't have any problems with the thick animals at Tucson this year, you are one of the few, I rang a total of 6-8 Rams and turned a couple of Turkeys!
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Post by #57 »

Cost of ammo isnt the problem, its that all the premium ammo ive tryed didnt perform well at all. I will get some Fed auto match and see what that will do next time Im in town. One other question. Agila makes centurian and CMPs ammo. several have written that its a little hard to chamber. would that be from gererous dementions? and might that be worth a try? Thanks all for your time and answers.#57
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