RWS Target Rifle

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:34 am

To the two Noobies in silhouette...BB and Shorty..a few moons ago Federal made some .22 that was competitive with Eley, under the direction and leadership of Col Wigger, marketed under the 711B, 900, and another round in the 1000 range (as I remember), then they outsourced the mass production of the lower level (711B) to CCI, and renamed the higher grade to the UM and UM1 (if my memory serves me right).
Those of us that tend to find a lot and buy in case++ quantities did so, the problem was that they did the outsourcing and the quality went to "insert your choice of words" without informing anyone. There were a fairly large number of shooters that had gone to Federal and a few of us that when we opened the cases of CCI (different color lead) found the quality severley lacking were able to return the trash, but there were a lot of the shooting market that got stuck holding the trash as Federal changed their return policy, those of us that have been around a while have not forgotten and despite the "American" company will not forget.
Col Wigger as most of you are well aware of, is now back with Eley (wonder why????). As for time frame, my memory puts this in the very late 90's, I think it was really pushed and won the shooters approval at the 1999 Nationals and Col Wigger was gone from Federal by late 2000.

So in my book, Federal has long way to go to earn my trust again. I do not do well with greedy companies.

Mary Watkins

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:38 am

This info is already well-known. It's also well-known that Federal somehow lost all their technical info on the UM1B stuff and can't make it again if they wanted to, without essentially starting from scratch again. Hence, RWS talk. But thanks for assuming nobody knew that but you, Mary.

Innocent · Post by **Innocent** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 3:56 am

Shorty,
Your comments in this series of posts certainly do not show any of the knowledge of the Federal screw up... as for RWS, I have shot competitions since 1972 and RWS has come in to this country many times over the years, with good and bad results. They are not consistent with their quality but feel free to buy up all of it as the last 6 bricks that I have won will not shoot any better than CCI lowest grade and I would not even keep it for the boy scouts to burn when I take a troop out, (last troop shot 3700 rounds in 6 hours with 16 rifles and 14 boys).
Mary

_Shorty · Post by **_Shorty** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 4:00 am

Every gun's different. But you go right on thinking that how it performs in your gun indicates how it will perform in any gun. I won't mind.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Tue Dec 09, 2008 7:18 am

Yup, Federal screwed the pooch for reasons unknown. Seems like 711B started out as down graded UM1, but I could easily have that wrong.

Bean counters and executives frequently forget that skill and experience are hard to out source, though you would think they'd learn something from all the object lessons out there. Still, SK Jag is having availability and consistency problems now, after building a solid following.

Eley managed to go the other way, and turn around deteriorating quality to become the benchmark rimfire ammunition maker. It would be great to understand what they did well enough to apply it elsewhere!

Jerry G · Post by **Jerry G** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 10:02 am

I'll bet Eley isn't run by thoes damn bean counters. They don't care about their product, only the next quarter.

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 11:02 am

Jerry G wrote:I'll bet Eley isn't run by thoes damn bean counters. They don't care about their product, only the next quarter.

Please don't get me started on that one. Let's just say that focusing on a objective while ignoring all others is a bad thing. You may well accomplish that goal, but the collateral damage is Pyrrhic.

steve b. · Post by **steve b.** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 2:53 pm

Wow,

This discussion got interesting.

There are a few more things at hand than just the basic idea of Federal subbing out production to RWS.

There is a term worth discussing at this point, and that's called "salting."

It's the idea that when a new ammunition is released for sale, it's of very good quality, almost too good of quality. It helps get the buyer in the right frame of mind when they tell their firends how wells this new brand X of ammunition shoots. After some time, the manufacturer relaxes some quality control standards to meet this demand, and there is a slight change in the ammunition's performance. Not a big one, but it's there.

So, my advice is that if you try some and it shoots very well, and worth the purchase price to you in particular, you would be wise to purchase more of that particular lot.

A hypothetical situation - this new RWS/Federal ammo may be RWS Target Rifle, just repackaged. Let's just say that for this discussion, it would sell for $5.50 per box of 50. Now, what if to help "boost" sales, some RWS R-50 slipped into some of the ammunition shipments, maybe even "mistakenly" packaged as RWS/Federal at the factory.

And let's just say you are out shooting this new RWS/Federal, and it shoots just smokin groups, on par with Eley Match and Lapua Midas +. But hey, it's only $5.50 per box. What a great deal. It's darn impressive to shoot as well as ammunition that's twice the price. I bet you would tell your friends and they would all go out and try some.

Call it "salting" or whatever, I think that the keen shooter can stumble on a newly released line of ammunition, and do well to test right away and possibly make a LARGE purchase.

But that's just my crazy random thoughts.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:41 pm

, I think that the keen shooter can stumble on a newly released line of ammunition, and do well to test right away and possibly make a LARGE purchase.

Not crazy at all. I think the ones of us who have been around awhile have noticed this trend. For a while it seemed like there was almost a two year cycle going on (though I have no data to back it up, just general impressions) with the latest great cheap stuff coming about once every two years. Seems like in our group we got in on the good 711B years ago, then Wolf Match Target, then SkJagd Standard Plus. I've still got about two cases of SK Standard Plus that shoots lights out and to the exact POI of the Eley that I routinely use.

Kitty

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 3:51 pm

jneihouse wrote:
, I think that the keen shooter can stumble on a newly released line of ammunition, and do well to test right away and possibly make a LARGE purchase.
Not crazy at all. I think the ones of us who have been around awhile have noticed this trend. For a while it seemed like there was almost a two year cycle going on (though I have no data to back it up, just general impressions) with the latest great cheap stuff coming about once every two years. Seems like in our group we got in on the good 711B years ago, then Wolf Match Target, then SkJagd Standard Plus. I've still got about two cases of SK Standard Plus that shoots lights out and to the exact POI of the Eley that I routinely use.

Kitty

Still hoarding that good stuff are we.....

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 4:16 pm

You bet...Have a special climate controlled vault in the Kitty Cave with lots of the good stuff.....

Kitty

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:13 pm

jneihouse wrote:You bet...Have a special climate controlled vault in the Kitty Cave with lots of the good stuff.....

Kitty

Now I know why BB wants me to go see the Kitty cave.

jneihouse · Post by **jneihouse** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 5:25 pm

Batman has the Bat Cave, Superman has the Fortress of Solitude, Tim Tebow has Ed Jones basement, and deep in the Arkansas river valley, too near to be far away and too far away to be near is the infamous Kitty Cave...No, you won't find it on any map and you come by invitation only, and only the truly unrepentant silhouette shooters are allowed to see the secretive recesses of Kitty's Lair.....It is from here that Bling originates...It is from here that ideas for rifles such as yours are hatched and it is from here that champions like Kolby are sprung...It is from here that magical high power loads are hatched...brass is polished, primers are lovingly seated, powder is dumped and bullets are seated just so..It sends chills up my spine just to know that I have been chosen by fate to hold the key to such a place.

Kitty

Bob259 · Post by **Bob259** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 6:07 pm

jneihouse wrote:Batman has the Bat Cave, Superman has the Fortress of Solitude, Tim Tebow has Ed Jones basement, and deep in the Arkansas river valley, too near to be far away and too far away to be near is the infamous Kitty Cave...No, you won't find it on any map and you come by invitation only, and only the truly unrepentant silhouette shooters are allowed to see the secretive recesses of Kitty's Lair.....It is from here that Bling originates...It is from here that ideas for rifles such as yours are hatched and it is from here that champions like Kolby are sprung...It is from here that magical high power loads are hatched...brass is polished, primers are lovingly seated, powder is dumped and bullets are seated just so..It sends chills up my spine just to know that I have been chosen by fate to hold the key to such a place.

Kitty

Drinking again huh......

BlauBear · Post by **BlauBear** » Thu Dec 11, 2008 7:05 pm

If you had ever loaded ammunition under Kitty's supervision, you'd know he isn't kidding. Now, the climate control is debatable, but not the load standards. Ever spend an hour checking box fresh Lapua brass with a micrometer? Trust me, they're in spec.