.22 LR Accuracy

[saikatana]

What do you consider to be the min. group at 100 yds. for hitting the ram? My Sako will group 1.13" OFF THE BENCH at 100 yds. I guess my problem is excessive headspace in the operator since I cannot break out of A Class. What level of accuracy are you guys getting and what ammo? I am using Lupua Master L for matchs.

[GeoNLR]

As long as that holds up at 100Meters I would think that good for the criters... I have heard of ammo that shot good at 100 yards and added 1/2 of the group size at 100 meters....don't know if I belive it or not but the premise does make sense = Shot your ammo at the distances you will have to shoot it at. IF you are saying that you are right over 1" AT 100 meters... I would say the problem, like mine, is between your ears...LOL.

Sub 1.25" honest groups at the Rams is a good starting point...IMHO

I am shooting some mismarked Match EPS that I got in Winnie this year. The other day I shot a 3 shot "clover" at the rams with all 3 touching, 4th went right through the middle to create a "single hole". I would rather not talk about the 5th shot, but the group was still well under an inch...Ha-ha. Let's just say I was on my way down range to pull the target before the bullet had left the barrel....

Also wanted to add... shoot 5 or so 5 shot groups min to see what your rifle is doing. Opinions vary on this... I think 5 is fine to check the rifle and ammo, most of us non-benchers are not going to execute 10 "perfect" shots PLUS we shoot rifles with 5 shot mags... not being bench shots the chances of us setting up to the rifle EXACTLY the same after changeing mags....

Also last time I tested my 1712 with some SK standard plus my (5) 5-shot group averages for 5 different lots were

Lot 23091 - 1.119"
Lot 242222 - 1.188"
Lot 13193 - 1.023"
Lot 13211 - .912"
Lot 23064 - 1.201"

This was with cleaning between lots and 25shots to "season" with that lot before shooting "for score"...

[dave imas]

i'm with Chicken. most benchrest shooters are extremely pleased with a rifle/ammunition combination that will consistently shoot around the 1" mark. i wouldn't put much stock in it when you hear about folks shooting 1/2" groups all day long at 100 meters. if you are getting a consistent 1.13" group at 100 meters you shouldn't miss a ram. if you do, just like the rest of us, you'll have to look in the mirror to find the problem.
dave

[Jason]

Since I used to shoot benchrest and still have some of the equipment, I often get asked to help with ammo testing for smallbore rifles at my local range. A guy recently asked me to test his rifle and ammo for him the day before a match. Even with minimal wind, wind flags out and very careful shot execution, I couldn't make it group better than two inches center-to-center for five shots at 100 meters. Two of the 10 groups were right at three inches. He proceeded to shoot 8 out of 10 shots into the ram on paper, and then 7 out of 10 with the next try. He called one of the misses in the first try and two in the second try, and wasn't sure if he was really on with the other misses. I think the rams are the place that accurate ammo comes into play most, and if that guy (a mid to upper AA class shooter, btw) can hit 15 of 20 along with calling misses on some of the others, I think your accuracy will be more than fine.

To be honest, there aren't all that many people who could shoot 5-shot groups less than 1" with a perfect 22lr gun/rifle combination in anything but absolute, perfectly calm conditions. The 22lr shoots so slow compared to centerfires and the bullets have such awful ballistic coefficients that the wind can easily throw the shots around and make you think the ammo is awful. Even besides wind variation, you have bench technique, breathing, and trigger control that aren't going to be easy to get perfect enough to shoot tiny groups. I can usually shoot groups of half an inch or so at 100m with my heavy barrel .223, but I'm overjoyed if I shoot groups under an inch at that distance with any of my 22lr rifles. If you were getting groups that size without using wind flags, benchrest equipment, or a stock designed for bench shooting, I'd say you're golden. Once you have your scope settings, your time would be much better spent practicing silhouette shooting than shooting off the bench.

[fivepigs]

I'm not much for shooting off the bench. A chronograph is a big help for me. No, it won't tell me for sure if the ammo will shoot well, but it will tell me if it won't--for sure. At least I can rule out the bad lots without wondering if it was just me.

For subsonic ammo (less than 1100 fps) 30 fps or less extreme spread (difference between the fastest and slowest shots) for a 50 round box is good--theoretical vertical delta less than one inch at 100 meters. 50 fps is okay. Above 70 fps and the theoretical vertical stringing (due strictly to velocity variation--it can only get worse) starts to exceed the size of the ram.

That said, I think accurate ammo is overrated. Accurate ammo only goes where you point it. Lets face it--how often are you really lined up on the target when you pull the trigger? Personally, I rely on the inaccuracy of my ammo to compensate for my poor aim.

[Guest]

Famous proverb says: A GOOD FLYER CAN OFTEN BE AN ASSET !!!

[ajj]

The way I heard it is "Sometimes the flyer goes into the group." You guys better be careful or I'll lay The Formula on you.

[GeoNLR]

Come on now man, don't tease us...LOL

I have a brand new Crony and I'm just Dying to use it....


X-Y over Z x the bc = What?????

[ajj]

In response to overwhelming demand and just because I think it's interesting, I repeat:
The average group size of a rifle fired offhand equals the square root of the sum of the squares of (1) the average "mechanical" accuracy the rifle/ammo combo can achieve from benchrest and (2) the shooter's average offhand group with an imaginary rifle which would shoot "perfect" one-hole groups from the bench.
The shooter who does six inch, 100 yard groups with the perfect rifle sees the average group grow only to 6.7 inches when handed a rifle which will only average 3 MOA. (What are you laughing at? I know you can shoot smaller groups. So can I. But put out the paper and shoot eight or ten, five shot groups at 100 meters @ 2 1/2 minutes per and then average the results.) Group size is not the sum of shooter error plus ammo error and until we get mighty good indeed we shouldn't worry too much about ammo accuracy as long as it's decent and doesn't throw a lot of wild flyers.
Thanks to all who inquired.

[slowstdy]

Now i'm not sure.. but i thought (and i know i should try harder not to).

[slowstdy]

OK You miserable toe rags, who stole the rest of my message......
come on..... I haven

[steve b.]

This is an interesting thread in that the unique perspective sheds some light on the final goals.

I notice alot of references to a assumed "benchrest standard," and this is probably the first time I have seen it cast this way.

There is alot of fundamentals "assumed" here, and I can only spectulate that it's because the shooters are busy working the silhouette game and not the benchrest game.

Unfortunately, I do not work at 100 meters enough to answer the initial question, but it's an interesting thread to say the least.

s.

[jneihouse]

Lots of ammo that I have experimented with over the years is excellent out to the turkeys, but tanks at the rams (100M)...Very few examples shoot well enough out to 100M to inspire a great deal of confidence in the shooter....This noted with the disclaimer that "This was in my rifles, your mileage may vary" I got "lucky" with my two Anschutz silhouette rifles, both of which sport Lilja #53 taper barrels, one fluted one plain (for the curious, the fluted barrel shoots tighter groups than the plain, but one barrel comparison does not a scientific test make). They both prefer the Eley EPS bullet in ammo from machine #4 at 1072 FPS, with 5 shot groups so consistently small that to publish them would invite accusations of truth stretching. Much variance in FPS in either rifle makes a big difference at 100M. Not much difference out to the turkeys, but at 100M a very clear difference. Oddly, both these rifles (one a 54:18 built to hunter specs and the other a 1710 built the same) shoot SKJadg Standard Plus shoots to the same POI and shoots great out to the turkeys (notice a tendency here?) and will shoot "around" an inch at 100M.

I've not tested rimfire ammo extensively, only testing as a means to an end, that being finding what my particular rifle shoots the best. One common denominator that seems pretty consistent in the ammo that I have tested is that the ammo that proves through the chronograph to have the smallest SD tends to group the best. Would seem work toward establishing that quality components (barrel, action, bedding, all the things that go into a quality rifle) and quality ammo (projectiles that all weigh the same, careful manufacturing processes in the case and priming, and a powder charge that produces VERY consistent velocities that are in the range that "ring" the harmonics of your particular barrel just so) produce consistently repeatable, small groups.......Now, trying to find all that at Wally World on clearance.....

[NewAZShooter]

I don't know if any two silhouette shooters would agree on any one specific answer to the initial question. I have asked this same question of almost everyone I know who shoots SB sil. I hear 1.5, 1, and even .5 inches at the rams, depending on who I ask. Basically, what I have found is that whatever I get as an answer is what that shooter's rifle has done in perfect conditions off the bench, or what the test target it came with suggests it can do. We tend to think that what our rifles shoot is the minimum we need. I just broke into AA myself and only have 8 months of experience to draw on. But when I shoot 50 rounds in 5 different ten-shot groups from the bench at paper targets set by the rams at our local range, my hunter and standard rifles shoot 2 and 2.5 inch ten-shot group averages using Eley Silhouex and Lapua Master M respectively. These were the brands these rifles liked best out of 30 brands tested.

Now those are 5 group, ten-shot averages. There are a few fliers that go far enough out of the groups to cause misses at the rams. In fact, I have often fired ten rounds at the ram swingers off the bench, and the most I have ever hit with these rifles is 9/10, least is 7/10. So in my mind, if you are good enough to hit more than 90% of the animals with a perfect one hole rifle, you need a rifle better than mine to do so, because those fliers that go out of the group could cost you 10% or more of your shots, even if you execute a perfect center break on every shot.

That is one of the reasons why I just bought a CZ 452. These have a reputation of shooting 1.5 inches or less at 100m, and I am looking forward to shooting some groups and ten shot tests at the swingers soon to see if I can hit 10/10 with the 452. I figure once I know my rifle can hit ALL of the animals off the bench with no fliers that cause misses, then I can be comfortable placing all my misses on my own shoulders. For me, confidence in the equipment is becoming pretty important. I guess shooting 2.5 MOA rifles will do that to a guy.

I don't remember what minimum group size is necessary to hit the rams every time (basically what size of a circle can be contained inside the body of the ram, but I think I saw that number somewhere here on Steel Chickens), but in my limited experience 2 to 2.5 on average is not enough, again due to the fliers that cause occasional misses.

Now in defense of the idea of shooting with a 2.5 moa rifle, I can say that I have had a ton of fun shooting mine, and I even hit as many as 36/60 with them a few times. They still shoot better than I can shoot them. I know this because I have never hit 90% in a match, but I have off the bench. A 2.5 MOA rifle for me was a great place to start out shooting silhouette. However, as you might predict, starting my second season at silhouette I was ready for a more accurate rifle, so I bought the CZ.

Maybe next year, it'll be a 1712, which is what the guy I bought the CZ from is getting to replace it. I agree with the previous posters...If your Sako shoots 1.13" groups at the rams, there is no reason to blame your misses on the rifle. I am certain the rams can contain a circle larger than 1.13 inches in the center of the animal.

[chickenchoker]

My 1712 shoots 1 shot, 1 hole groups all day long. It doesn't care what ammo I'm shooting.