.22 LR Accuracy

22 Long Rifle ammo is finicky. Tell us all about it here.
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BlauBear
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Post by BlauBear »

Your variance in velocity is 10 or 15 fps out of 995 is minor, especially considering that smaller velocity differences are noted in rounds that deviate more, so maybe velocity is not the issue. Spin? Bullet weight? Bullet balance? Aerodynamics?
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Post by steve b. »

"Steve, another thing that we silhouette shooters have to contend with is having to shoot for record without the benefit of firing fouling shots once the match begins. Since we shoot in relays and some times we have to wait up to an hour for our relay to come up a lot of the rifles we use send the first round to a different POI with respect to the ones that follow if they have not been fired for awhile (read cold barrel). Have you run into that problem while shooting silhouette and do you have any thoughts regarding the problem?"

Yeah, I completely understand this and have a plan to test this issue out in detail and write an article in the Magazine about this. Know it is right near the top on my "to test" list.

I will get you some solid answers on this, but I'm gonna use BR guns to test this out. I think it's very important to remove all the human element from a test like this.

BB,

more good questions to which I have no answers. just gotta keep testing.
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Post by Dee »

I am prone to think the occasional flier or as I call it a miss is due to something other than velocity if that has been established as being consistent.

Like the air rifle world and PCP's with regulators to maintain a constant velocity shot to shot. These are considered working well when the pellet chronies with a SD of around 10-20 fps max with some even less than that. The thing is even with a 25 fps swing in velocity @ 50 yards it only equates to the width of a 10.5g .177 call pellet in vertical drop. Even those with the best regulators installed and electronic triggers are subject to a flier from a bad pellet more than anything else, besides the shooter of course. I have a few unregulated PCP rifles and so long as I fill to the power curve my max SD is within 30 fps. Plus I never have to worry about a regulator going belly up on me either.

I just ran 2 different ballistic calcs using a 40g .22 w/BC=.126 @1080 and 1060 fps. Out @100 meters the 20 fps variance equals roughly .74" extra drop. At 50 yards it shrinks to .018" which is roughly 1/12th the .22 bullets diameter.

With all the other variables in the manufacturing process I would tend to think something is going on there to create the variance you see as well as the always present, ever shifting and invisible forces of nature acting on each round differently then the last. No amount of wind flags can tell you whats actually happening to each shot fired between the muzzle and target.

Unbalanced bullets with voids in them or small deformations in the external surfaces could be causing as much or more flight path variation which I tend to believe is the case in most instances. If it were strickly a matter of velocity swings all the fliers should be low/high only. My experience has shown that fliers have minds of their own in where they end up.

This Calfee fellow IIRC is the guy that shot the BR record recently? I am not really a bench rest shooter as I only use it for sighting in and testing ammo for groups. Anyway, I read a few interviews with him and he was having the same issue of a flier out of nowhere even use Eley Tenex or EPS (the ultra high dollar stuff). He ended up weight sorting the expensive ammo and found rounds that were off from the rest in the lot at about the same frequency as he was having a flier. I don't recall if it was determined to be a short charge weight or a lighter bullet/case I think he just changed lots of ammo.

All that being said I really do think the variables that are unseen and unfelt at the time the shot breaks are what gives us this issue. Am I willing to pay more for ammo that never strays from the .5" group opening it up to .9" on the 5th shot? Not if todays ammo costs are any example of the price they would be charging for the new and improved good stuff. Not many people can outshoot their rifles and ammo currently.

As for silhouettes and whats accurate enough I try to keep it simple. If I am missing Turkeys or Rams like someone boogered up my scope settings while I was away I simply bench the rifle or hold off a post side and take a shot. If they will all fall from the bench with center shots then I have no reason to believe they should not fall so long as I break the shot there and follow through when shooting offhand. If I miss.. opps I mean have a flier oh well such is life and I will never really know what happened its either an X or O my scorecard doesn't care about how or why lol.


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Post by _Shorty »

You're thinking of Joe Friedrich. Calfee is a well-known gunsmith.
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Post by Dee »

Your right Shorty my mistake. I knew the name Calfee from someplace else and with all the BR talk got them mixed up.

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hmm.

Post by steve b. »

Joe does not weigh ammunition at this time.

s.
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Post by Dee »

Yeah he mentioned in the interview that he no longer bothered with it. Can't say as I blame him I would hate to think you spend that much on ammo for a .22 and still need to weigh and measure it to be sure its ok, that just seems ridiculous. My main point was that even one of the best BR shooters out there has flier issues with the best of equipment and ammo.

Once it gets to a certain point its really splitting hairs or pulling them out to try and wring that last tiny bit of inaccuracy out of something that for anything other than trying to make one hole groups is not really required. With so many variables in play something is going to be different enough on occassion to make the bullet veer off group. We always here about little groups etc but no one ever mentions the huge ones shot before and after the little one. Who is to say your 5th shot wasn't a flier that the wind pushed back into the group hole, without the wind it would have missed, with the wind it might miss. Almost seems like insanity in a way :lol:

Does anyone shoot one hole 5 shot groups more often then they shoot clover leaf groups or bigger by and large? I doubt it, yet they try and try for one hole. All the while never really knowing for sure what it is that might affect this shoot differently than the last combined with the unknown of each individual round of ammo. One could spend their entire life chasing their tail trying to figure it out. Then once you settle on a reason some other variable will come into play and your right back where you started.


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Post by steve b. »

The thing about Joe's work that is so interesting to me is the monster scores he has shot back to back. To shoot 4 25-score targets cards is super difficult, more so than shooting groups because you are moving the rifle and taking over an hour to do it.

Changes in conditions and such really play into it over that time span.

The amazing part is that infact he did find an ammunition that did deliver the accuracy we are all looking for.

Now, with our tools and abilities, my goal is to identify what makes that ammunition better than the next lot of Eley.

Obviously his rifle has the potential, and when match with the "right" ammunition, it really delivers.

We need to answer the why question, because we do know it's possible.
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Post by Dee »

It is amazing to see those targets and I can understand people wanting that perfect card etc. I just feel that there are so many things beyond our abilities to change from one shot to the next that you not only have to be really good but probably a bit lucky as well :lol: and a bit insane chasing it group after group or card after card. Especially when your using .22 rimfire ammo which is a totally unknown variable from lot to lot.

I wish they would develop a few good standard velocity rounds that they maintain consistency without having to pay a fortune for it. If I am spending $10 on 50 rounds of .22 they better be consistent without question in my mind, yet I know they are not and some will be bad.

This probably is more important for the BR shooters than the sils since I only know a few people with benchlike offhand holds lol.

Looking forward to seeing your future test results.


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Post by timfinle »

Okay, how does someone know what machine a lot of eley eps is run on? I have the same barrel as kitty and want to start tracking this info to see if there is a difference with my barrel.
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Post by _Shorty »

http://www.gzanders.com/eley/post05.html
http://www.gzanders.com/eley/lotexp.html

edit - Also, the newer stuff lists the velocity that Eley got from their test rig. So this box of Tenex that I have here lists the lot number 1005-04185, and then below that it says 1070. So that's stuff made in 2005 on machine #4, and it tested at 1070 ft/s out of their test gun. Something that's useful for is, if you can't find the same lot # that you've been shooting, you may have similar luck with a different lot that was also made on the same machine and has the same or similar velocity.
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Post by timfinle »

Thanks shorty,

I thought the number was right, but, I have only purchased 2 bricks so far and did not look. I will begin to track this information for reference.
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Re: .22 LR Accuracy

Post by christopher »

G DAY
I hope I have not misted any thing
I weigh a lot of ammo and pulled the lightes and the heaves projectiles out of the cases and weigh them
I can tell you most of the wait variation is in the projectiles
Now is it in the profile of the projectile
Holes in it or may be its a variation in the material used to make the projectiles :?:
I WOULD LIKE YOUR OPINIONS THANKS
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Re: .22 LR Accuracy

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saikatana wrote:What do you consider to be the min. group at 100 yds. for hitting the ram? My Sako will group 1.13" OFF THE BENCH at 100 yds. I guess my problem is excessive headspace in the operator since I cannot break out of A Class. What level of accuracy are you guys getting and what ammo? I am using Lupua Master L for matchs.
IMHO, unless i'm missing the point, none of this matters anyway if you can't correctly hold the crosshairs on the ram (or any target offhand). i would have to believe that if you shoot a clover leaf at 100 off a bench, it doesn't matter unless you can steadily place your sights on the target.

so i would think that the min. group for hitting the ram would be approximately the size of the surface area of the ram to produce a "hit". of course that is with dead steady aim. with the sizes of groups posted here, i would worry more about improving shooting form and holding on a target rather than groups.

i don't know the measurement, but i would have to also think at the very least, 1/2 the size of the ram from top of the back to bottom of the belly, which would allow for elevation and windage variation from dead center.

i shot some benchrest where a .5" group at 50 yards doesn't cut it.
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Re: .22 LR Accuracy

Post by BlauBear »

TOP PREDATOR wrote:IMHO, unless i'm missing the point, none of this matters anyway if you can't correctly hold the crosshairs on the ram (or any target offhand). i would have to believe that if you shoot a clover leaf at 100 off a bench, it doesn't matter unless you can steadily place your sights on the target.
You're right and wrong. Without a good hold the gear doesn't matter, but, the game is minimizing the variables under our control. To do that, we practice, prepare our gear, and double check everything. A rifle that will hold 1 MOA out to 100 meters, a little over 1" center-to-center, improves the odds that a poor shot on my part will still catch the target.

Choosing the right gear helps me shoot better even though it doesn't make me a better shooter.
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