Leupold Dot Sizes - Past Myths Busted

[GeoNLR]

OK, Let me start with saying this may or may not be ‘News’ to some… For years I have been told that the .0060” Leupold dot was roughly 3/8 MOA at 20X on an EFR. Recently I made contact with a new rep at Leupold and got some ‘new to me’ information regarding available dot sizes and their subtension at both the low and high magnification. This information passes my own litmus test from what information I have got from others manufactures in the past. Basically the size of a dot will be it’s MOA sustention on max power. That is why it never made sense to me that a .0060” dot was 3/8 MOA… Please see the chart below… By the way, before I wrote this I asked for some type of ‘confirmation’ of this information… It was confirmed and I was informed that it comes from Leupold’s ‘reticle subtension engineering sheet’ and was also confirmed via Leupold’s ‘Technical Service’ and ‘Custom Shop’ departments.

There are (6) dots avaliable total (4-'Target' {fine wire} and 2- 'Leupold' {tapered wire}). FYI - " below are at 100 yards i.e. MOA... 0.24" = 1/4 MOA

.0017 Target Dot: 6.5x = 0.49” 20x = 0.17”
.0024 Target Dot: 6.5x = 0.70” 20x = 0.24”
.0030 Target Dot: 6.5x = 0.87” 20x = 0.29”
.0070 Target Dot: 6.5x = 2.04” 20x = 0.69”

.0035 Leupold Dot: 6.5x = 1.02” 20x = 0.35”
.0060 Leupold Dot: 6.5x = 1.75” 20x = 0.59”


I’m sorry for any wrong information I may have published or passed on in the past… I wanted to put this here for folks to reference, etc.

Thanks,

Chicken George

[Jeaux]

Chicken, does this information apply only to the 6.5-20x scopes? Say I shoot a FX3 30x with the 3/8min dot. Could I use the chart you posted to calculate the actual dot size of my reticle, or does my scope have the correct size dot to cover a 3/8 minute circle at 100 yds? That would mean that the 25x and 30x scopes have different size dots inside the scope to both appear as 3/8 minute at distance because of the difference in magnification.

Now say we move up to the Competition 45x with the 1/8 minute dot. Being fixed power I am assuming that Leupold has sized the dot to cover a 1/8 minute circle at 100 yds. That would make for a mighty small dot inside the scope, if the figures on the chart work the same for the fixed power scopes as they do on the variables.

[GeoNLR]

The chart above applies only to the variables. I would ASSume that when a fixed power scope says "X/8 MOA dot" that that is exactly what it is... no calculations are necessary because the subtention is not changing because the scope is a fixed power.

I would also assume that the chart above COULD be translated to other scopes and it’s based off of the magnification … i.e. in a 3X multiplier scope (Leupold uses this system) the dot would be the same size in a 6x18-40 on 18X as it is above on 20X… In a 4.5-14-40 the dot would be the same subtention on 14X as the chart shows above on 20X. You can also add a 2X # to the chart above really easy

Example –

.0060 Leupold Dot: 6.5x = 1.75” 20x = 0.59”

On 13X (or 2X), the dot would be 1.18MOA or “ at 100 yards

Multiplier ............ 1X.......... 2X..........3X
Scope Type
6.5-20 ................ 6.5x........13x........ 20x
6-18................... 6x......... 12x........ 18x
8.5-25................. 8.5x....... 17x........ 25x
4.5-14................. 4.5x....... 9x..........14x
4-12................... 4x......... 8x......... 12x

.0060 DOT ............1.75”...... 1.18”..... .59”

May have been more info than you were looking for, but I get asked this stuff quite often. I’m planning on up-dating my website so I wanted to get the information on here as well so it’s in the ‘searchable’ database that is Steelchickens.com … Who knows… with enough interest (and information) we might get a ‘sticky’ going! Ha-ha.

[Jeaux]

Thanks Chicken. I wouldn't hold your breath on getting a sticky, but this is THE best searchable database on the web for all things silhouette. I got most of the load data for my 6.5 x 47 from the SC forums. Some of the posts made by the more experienced shooters on here provide a wealth of information to new and prospective shooters. They also show the prospective shooters out there what a fun bunch of folks we are.

[GeoNLR]

I’ll go one step further… I used to think at one time that a ¼ MOA dot was ½ the ‘size’ of a ½ MOA dot… In subtention that is correct, but in the ‘area’ the eye perceives, this is just not the case… It's actually 1/4 the size...

See this ‘chart’ I made…



Imagine the square is 1” across and I have broken it up into 16 squares…

In geometry we learn that the area of a disk (circle) can be found by using the following formula ‘Pie’ times ‘Radius Squared’

IF the overall square above is 1” X 1”, than you could arguer that a ½ MOA dot is 4 TIMES larger than a ¼ MOA dot, not 2X…

3.14 X (.25”x .25”) = .19625” (1/4 MOA dot expressed in ‘area’ from my example above)
3.14 X (.5” x .5”) = .785” (1/2 MOA dot expressed in ‘area’ from my example above)

I leaned this lesson when I got my first scope with a 1/4MOA Dot installed by Bushnell… no way anyone was going to convince me that is was just a shade smaller than the Leupold dot… and I was right! Ha-ha

*PLEASE NOTE* Professional surveyors (GTS from Benton) and physicists need not reply to this post and tell me I’m wrong… I probably am, but many have used this math to answer the same question and get a grip on how different dot sizes will appear to the eye…

[Dee]

You are correct with the math Chicken. The small increase in a dimension especially round shapes changes the area and volume substantially. Take a 2 gallon vesus 3 gallon flower pot. The difference is a mere inch roughly in diameter for the same height. You can't just assume it is going to appear twice as big to your eye because the base dimension of the diameter is doubled. As you mentioned to me before I think the 1/2 moa dot is like trying to aim with an 8-Ball compared to even 3/8.

Dee

[Jason]

The difference in area varies as the square of the ratio of difference in diameter. Therefore, if one dot is twice the diameter of another, the area of the first dot is 2^2 (two squared) or 4 times the area of the second. That makes it easy to calculate the perceptible difference in size of dots no matter what their sizes are. For my own decision on whether it's worth it to have my 1/4 minute dot changed to a 3/8 minute dot, I initially thought the difference wouldn't be noticeable enough to be worth the money, time without the scope, and risk of damage in transit. Once I did the math, it has changed my mind. With 3/8 being 1.5 times 1/4 (which is 2/8), that means that the area of the 3/8 minute dot will be 1.5^2 or 2.25 times the size of the 1/4 minute dot.

[edgehit]

I had sent my EFR in to Leupold before Chicken made this post to have a 0.007 target dot installed. It returned today with a tiny 0.003 dot. So I call up Leupold service. They immediately emailed me a return label so I can go thru this all over again. This is the third serviced scope I've had to return because they don't QC the order.

[ter]

The custom shop has no organization. Sad.

I had sent my EFR in to Leupold before Chicken made this post to have a 0.007 target dot installed. It returned today with a tiny 0.003 dot. So I call up Leupold service. They immediately emailed me a return label so I can go thru this all over again. This is the third serviced scope I've had to return because they don't QC the order.

[Bob259]

In the last two years I've had more problems with th custom shop them I care to think about.

Billed me for a custom annodized scope and said it shipped, shipped but to someone elses and billed me.. who? they were not sure (after waiting for 3 months and then it took me weeks for them to apply credit back to my account)
Replacement scope order lost... twice (blamed the new computer system)
Second scope order goofed up on dot size, returned
No annodized shade was in the box only the stock black one
Litterly... 4 months to get the annodized scope shade, and then it was the wrong shade (but told me to keep the black one )
I gave up on them and told them so...

They blamed some of it on the new computer system, but they were great with the old one and never a screw up. I say it's new people and the bean counters ruined another great American company....

[jdp]

I sent my 6.5x20 efr to Leupold for a dot change last fall. I asked what was the largest dot that I could get in it @ 20x @ 100 yards before sending it. I was told .69 @ 100 yards. When I saw that it had arrived (delivery conformation) I called the next morning. The person that I talked to at that time said that he had never heard of that size dot option. I asked for him to check with the custom shop. He first called a supervisor over the "custom Line". He returned to the phone and said that he had learned something, that a .0070 dot was available that would be .697 @ 100 yards. He told me that it wasn't listed as an option on the computer. I asked why. He said that the supervisor told him that most people that call in and want and get "the biggest dot available" are unhappy with it because it is to large and return the scope for a smaller dot.That is why it was not listed as an option. Only those that know exactly what they want and what to ask for will get that particular dot. I paid him for the service charge $59 by debit, thanked him for double checking, and had my scope in my hand the way I wanted it within 5 days. It was mailed back to me on the same day that I made that phone call. Knowing exactly what I wanted was the key. I am totally happy with their work, service and the size of target dot is perfect for me. I will probably be sending another for the same thing soon.

[GeoNLR]

I will say this, I can send 30-40 through with out a glitch, but once one goes bad, it seems it's only the beginning...(recently had one get delivered to TX that made a number of trips back and fourth across the country… In the end, all (3) parties involved had some ownership in the problem and Leupold never even hinted for a $dime for recouping shipping, labor, etc. back from me/my customer… they simply wanted to make sure that the scope was ‘right’) I will also say this, They have always went above and beyond for me and my customers. They are far from perfect, but there is not another outfit to compare them to IMO. Anytime I have requested one, they have sent me / my customers pre-paid labels with no questions. Many times they have overnighted optics for my customers at no charge, etc.

As mentioned, knowing what you are looking for and communicating that to the correct person are the key. That is part of the reason I created this post… to get the ‘correct’ information out there…

Chicken

[stsbuyer]

George,

Now I am all confused. My dad told me that corn bread was square and that pie are round!

[edgehit]

I got the scope back today after Shawn personally assured me the 0.007" scope reticle was installed as requested.

I still have the tiny 0.003" dot and a receipt that says "returned as received"

Leupold service could be better run by trained monkeys.

I'll be without my scope for 3 more weeks and no assurance I'll get what I paid for.

[Bob259]

I got the scope back today after Shawn personally assured me the 0.007" scope reticle was installed as requested.

I still have the tiny 0.003" dot and a receipt that says "returned as received"

Leupold service could be better run by trained monkeys.

I'll be without my scope for 3 more weeks and no assurance I'll get what I paid for.

Feel for you Joe.... I know what your going through, been there done that with them myself. Not sure what their problem is lately, but from a consumers point of view it's not pretty and very frustrating.