New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
cedestech
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by cedestech » Wed Sep 11, 2013 4:19 am

GregG wrote:
cedestech wrote:

Look at the classes break downs if you do not believe me. CLA is higher.
I'm picking up what your putting down now.... Yes, you are correct but on the hanicap
used for ratings I still maintain that "generaly" an AA shooter will shoot AA +/- a rank. In CLA vs SB.

GregG
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:15 pm

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by GregG » Wed Sep 11, 2013 5:21 am

Boats, You have been in the game much longer than I but I have been competitively shooting for what it sounds like just about as long. I have heard many dark stories about silhouette and the rule changes. I do have a different opinion on the so call franken hunter. You can try to blame all you want the decline of silhouette on equipment but that is not the problem. People will spend money for things they enjoy (see my previous boat post).

The problem is silhouette, it is hard, it is not the "it" sport. Look at IHMSA silhouette or NRA silhouette both are just about dead. While sports like IDPA, IPSC, three gun are growing. A local IDPA club at Houston has 80+ every monthly match. When was the last time any silhouette monthly match had 80 shooters.

A near Houston 3 gun match had over 300 entries, and a prize table to $300,000. Guess what rank and file shooters are complaining, I cannot win with all the pros there.

NRA high-power changed their rules in the past couple of years because they had issued so many starting rule variances because their shooter could not follow their starting position because of age.

Sorry, I have heard this tired argument, all we have to do is change the rules, use factory cheap guns, and people will flock back to the sport. Sorry IMHO your logic is completely wrong. Shooting is declining, and shooters are migrating to the action sports, they are fun, you get immediate feedback, you have a high degree of success the first time.

As for winning, how many of use on this board can say we ever won a state, regional, or national event (not class won it out right). I suspect it is very small, so we are shooting because we love the sport.

Equipment is not the problem. How many people have brought a new shooter to the range recently? Introduced them to the sport, they can get into it with a 300 dollar CA and 300 t-24 scope and guarantee win any match.

Greg

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by dustinflint » Wed Sep 11, 2013 8:06 am

hermit5 wrote:Entry level is shooting a rifle that is not much different right out of the box by a master or b shooter and not determined by ones budget.
You may not believe this but there was a time when more shooters were on the line shooting Rem 541t with factory triggers,same with Rem 700 out of the box with factory triggers.This kept an even playing field.
boats wrote:My opinion, based on 25 years of Silhouette, few nationals, dozen or so States last 10 MD at our Club is the Hunter rifle class rule change, allowing re-barreled FrankenHunters has been negative for the sport. I was at those meetings when a small group made so much noise over the weight limit and abllity of factory barrels to hit rams the rule was changed. Now we have a one gun match, used to be most of us had a Silhouette rifle and Hunter rifle.
So the contention is that rule changes have "ruined" the game by deterring new shooters with increased equipment costs. Lets do the math:

Lets assume I'm a new shooter and I go to a smallbore silhouette match under todays rules and decide that I want to rig myself up with a rifle like the master shooters are using. Lets buy everything new to make the comparison accurate.

I head on over to champions choice and pick up an Anschutz 1712 barreled action for $975.00 (http://www.champchoice.com/prod-1712D__ ... -1431.aspx)

Then I buy a Leupold FX-iii 25X for $650.00 (http://www.amazon.com/Leupold-FX-3-Silh ... B0026Q1RA8)

Then I buy a set of BKL mounts for $37.50 (http://www.pyramydair.com/s/a/BKL_1_Rin ... Black/2900)

Then I buy a Pharr stock for $300, the bottom metal for $100 and get Mark or Evelio or Steve to do the inletting for $300.

Now I have a competitive setup as good as anything that I can shoot in hunter and standard for a total of $2362.50 (and I could do this lots cheaper but I'm going straight retail for the comparison).

Now, lets go back to the old rules for hunter class - 7.5 pound factory rifle with no modifications. Lets assume an Anschutz 1712FWT is not allowed. I dont know where I can get a new Remington 541 so I get a new CZ 455 for $421 (http://www.budsgunshop.com/catalog/prod ... alnut+Blue) (this is probably too heavy, but I'm sure I can get one in the plastic stock for about the same price.)

I get my Leupold Scope for $650 and my BKL mounts for $37.50 for a total of $1108.50. Not bad! But wait, what about STANDARD rifle?? If I cant compete with a custom hunter gun with my factory rifle I CERTAINLY can't compete with the standard guns on the line... Time to pull out my wallet again:

For my standard rifle, I buy a new 54.18 MSR for $2,743.00 (of course, I cant find a new 54.18 MSR but this is the 2011 price from ISS - http://www.iss-internationalshootersser ... orters.pdf)

Then I buy another Leupold scope for my 54.18 for $650 and another set of BKL mounts for $37.50.

The standard rifle that I need to be "competitive" cost me $3,430.50.

So, lets compare: One retail-price custom rifle under the new rule cost $2362.50

The two retail-priced rifles needed under the old rules cost me $5,539.00

I'm going to stick with my belief that the difficulty of the game and the lack of promotion and visibility of the game is the cause for lower numbers, not the equipment expenses under the new rules.

Dustin

User avatar
Jason
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 2877
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
Location: Snohomish, WA

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by Jason » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:26 am

Since this is the cowboy forum, I'll stick to the cowboy topic here. The claim is that the equipment rule changes will keep a new shooter from even getting started in the game. Think about that for a minute. How many shooters who have never shot a cowboy lever gun match are going to show up at a local match and be greatly discouraged by the rear sight on someone's lever action rifle? Does anyone here seriously believe this to be true, or is it just another excuse to bring up the "equipment race" complaint that you have about the smallbore and high power matches? Someone new to a match is going to be entirely overwhelmed by the volume of information coming at him/her, and that is going to be a tiny detail if he/she even notices it at all. We're not shooting at tiny targets or truly long distances in lever gun silhouette matches. Adjustable rear apertures were already legal. Front aperture inserts other than post and bead are still not legal. Those two are the only things that will improve sight picture. A properly maintained (inspected, tested, lubricated) sight from Williams, Lyman, or Redfield will be more than precise enough for the game. The big three aspects lacking for rifles in this match are trigger, stock shape, and accuracy. None of those are changed by this rule, so a rifle with a $400 target sight isn't going to be better than one with a $100 Redfield. It will actually have a shorter sight radius than a tang sight since no extended mounts are allowed, so it will be arguably worse. There have been guys buying $1200+ rifles for CLA matches for years, so even with the addition of a $400 target sight the price for the rifles used most commonly in matches, even by the winners of the big matches, will still be below that.

If someone suddenly figures out how to put an Anschutz 5018 trigger in a Marlin 336, then you can complain about the equipment race. Until then, I think you guys need to find something else to complain about if you just have to complain about something.

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1182
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by dustinflint » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:30 am

Jason wrote:
If someone suddenly figures out how to put an Anschutz 5018 trigger in a Marlin 336, then you can complain about the equipment race.
Is that a problem?? Glad I went with a Jackson trigger on my 30-30! #:-s

Dustin

cedestech
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1032
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by cedestech » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:38 am

Jason wrote:Since this is the cowboy forum, I'll stick to the cowboy topic here. The claim is that the equipment rule changes will keep a new shooter from even getting started in the game. Think about that for a minute. How many shooters who have never shot a cowboy lever gun match are going to show up at a local match and be greatly discouraged by the rear sight on someone's lever action rifle? .
That. RIght now there is a perfectly managable Henry H001T with the correct sights in the F/S section for $425 shipped. You can't buy the rifle and sights for that.
You can (or pay a smith) to work the triggers down to a very nice weight. They aren't required to be 2# now, just "safe". There is no reason a Mater ranked shooter can't
take that rifle and shoot master scores. They may need to make some tweeks to get it where they like it but they would be able to shoot it within a couple animals of
any other gun they like. $425 isn't too much for a rifle. SB is a differnt can of works like Jason said.

Really, we are all reading the same book just on a different chapter. While equipment cost can be daunting, that is almost never the "REAL" reason someone chooses
to or not to particapate in a activity.

IMHO of corse....

Bob Mc Alice
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1699
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:54 am
Location: Colorado

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Wed Sep 11, 2013 11:19 am

I do not shoot levergun silhouette regularly but have shot three approved local long range matches and two rimfire matches, one a state championship. The three matches were fired with my all stock leaf sighted Marlin 336 20" carbine .30-30. My worst score was a 32, best a 35.

The state rimfire match was with a borrowed 39A with a peep sight, unknown brand. I took match second with a 35. A regular SB silhouette rifle shooter was match winner with a 36, and third overall was also a SB silhouette guy with a 34. The three of us took some mild critisism and ribbing at the awards ceremony for crashing their event.

A new shooter should do well with bone stock equipment for this game.

GregG
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 312
Joined: Fri Dec 15, 2006 5:15 pm

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by GregG » Wed Sep 11, 2013 6:45 pm

cedestech wrote:
Jason wrote: Really, we are all reading the same book just on a different chapter. While equipment cost can be daunting, that is almost never the "REAL" reason someone chooses
to or not to particapate in a activity.

IMHO of corse....

"Exactly"

edgehit
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2006 3:24 pm

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by edgehit » Wed Sep 11, 2013 9:36 pm

Oh boy. I rarely roll up my sleeves and jump in, but I can't help myself. McAlice got me going!

This game is easier than SB. You want to shoot Better cowboy scores? Then tune up your mind shooting SB.
Bob Mc Alice wrote:A new shooter should do well with bone stock equipment for this game.
McAlice is right. There's no reason a new shooter can't figure out holds, sight pictures, and shoot AAA class scores with bead and blade factory sights. They would need to shoot on paper, practice, and have shooting skill. But I will say that any repeatable peep sight is an advantage over a blade. A peep will take a shooter up a classification. So who allowed peep sights? Any normal functioning peep sight is minute of chicken accurate so I don't care if someone is using their Gehman sights. It's not a factor. And I know of guys who are using diopters in their merit sights right now. I use shooting glasses. I can't believe more people don't have them. I hit more targets when I got them.

And why can't we use our Kowas? What the hell difference will a spotting scope make over binoculars? Guys are using gyro stabilized binoculars. I bet cowboys would love to have had those on horseback! No one complaining about this?

As for SB and HP classification vs cowboy class, I'm a AAA SB and AA HP shooter vs master across the board in cowboy. I shot master SB cowboy my first match when I fitted peeps on my marlin. After that, found winchesters shot better than marlins so perhaps winchesters should be outlawed? =))

I've shot this game enough at master class level, nearly won the nationals this year, to say that I'm not concerned with competing against rifles with Redfield Olympics or fiber. And if a fella needs fiber to be able to see and have fun then have at it. I think everyone should be confident their equipment is not holding them back. I have practiced with national champions at My home range and get the benefit of their knowledge and experience. I shoot Williams peep with 6 o'clock hold with front post. That's old school IHMSA right there. Touch the animal leg with the front post and let the lead fly. I've tried tuned rifles with fiber and redfields and i don't shoot any better with them. As a mentor once told me, "focus on that front sight!" When I do, targets fall down. It doesn't matter if the front sight is hooded, fiber, bead, or post. Now, an aperture front sight is another matter. Automatic dead target if I can hold. I once tried 2 post sights. One upside down. Automatic dead target. Just sandwich the target between 2 posts and release the shot. Are 2 posts legal? You better hope not because its that good.

What it boils down to in any given match is mind control. Staying in the here and now. This sight picture, this hold, break the shot...now. I lost the nationals because my brain surrendered on the last day on pigs. I hadn't missed a pig all week, then missed 4. Preston Gibson walked over and flogged me with his hat when I did that. He won by 2.
- Joe

dhatch
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:00 pm
Location: Jackson Parish Louisiana.
Contact:

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by dhatch » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:52 pm

PhxShooter wrote:
Tue Sep 10, 2013 5:21 pm
tenx9,

Also gotta disagree with your last comments.
Maybe you won't see a multitudes of perfect scores but ...
Just FYI, NO ONE has EVER shot a perfect 40 in a State, Regional or National match in either SBCLA or PCCLA. Yeah I'd have to agree that you won't see a multitude of perfect scores. Regarding the
Easy targets at relatively short distances
why are you only shooting a 30 if they're that easy and close? Not trying to start a fight here but it does kinda irritate me when folks talk about how easy the sport is. I've shot tens of thousands of rounds and spent many, many, many hours of dedicated practice to earn Master Class in CLA, SBCLA & PCCLA. I'm at the range EVERY week and sometimes multiple times a week still trying to improve my skills.

I don't care what equipment you use you've still got to have proper sight alignment, breathing, trigger control, and follow through. Anyone who doesn't use the best equipment that your budget will allow isn't truly concerned with shooting the best they can and with winning. I'm a very competitive person and if I have the skills I want to win. If I don't have the skills to win ( as in Sporting Clays) then I still like to participate but I don't begrudge the shooter who beats me and has the $25,000 + Perazzi shotgun that I don't have. I'm gonna guess that if he had my Beretta and I had his Perazzi he'd still beat me because he has the skill. I shoot in Master Class in Sporting Clays but simply no longer have the time to put in the effort to maintain my skills. Such is life.

My suggestion would be to anyone in this sport is to quit worrying about what equipment someone else has or is using and direct your energies to improving your own equipment to the best you can reasonably afford then spend all the time you can in serious practice. After you've done that then go to all the matches you can, shoot your best and have a great time win or lose. :)
As there hasn’t been much to read about lately, I commenced to reading threads of the past, to broaden my already vast knowledge and skills.
I must say that the above quote is very well said, but for sure, it is the last paragraph that is the Best said. Danny.
Proud Member of the C. C. S. A.
Dodaddy is NOT me. I'm the Old Fart. However, he IS my Son and that Apple hit him on the head!

dhatch
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 202
Joined: Thu Jan 30, 2014 12:00 pm
Location: Jackson Parish Louisiana.
Contact:

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by dhatch » Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:55 pm

Also, what’s a Perrazi? Never heard of one.
Proud Member of the C. C. S. A.
Dodaddy is NOT me. I'm the Old Fart. However, he IS my Son and that Apple hit him on the head!

Doodaddy
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 332
Joined: Tue Jun 11, 2013 3:07 pm
Location: West Monroe, LA

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by Doodaddy » Mon Oct 09, 2017 2:40 pm

dhatch wrote:
Mon Oct 09, 2017 1:55 pm
Also, what’s a Perrazi? Never heard of one.
http://lmgtfy.com/?q=perazzi+shotgun
I am NOT Danny Hatch. Image

Del
Unclassified Poster
Posts: 2
Joined: Thu Mar 17, 2016 2:39 pm

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by Del » Wed Dec 13, 2017 10:00 am

Not sure when they will ever update the NRA Silhouette rule book for this change to allow non-magnified round aperture front sights but to bring this post up to date:
2017 Rule Changes – Silhouette Rifle

3.1.3 Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette Rifle
a. Rear sights may be open, receiver, or tang sights, mounted as originally intended. No extended mounts are permitted.

The front sights must be a post or bead or a fixed, non-magnified round aperture. A front sight anti-glare tube, which may
be no longer than 1 1/8” to include any attachments and no larger than a ¾” outside diameter, may be used.

jimkidwell
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 76
Joined: Mon Feb 29, 2016 4:11 pm
Contact:

Re: New Rules for Cowboy Lever...

Post by jimkidwell » Wed Dec 13, 2017 4:20 pm

....................................Jim
You are a ghost driving a meat covered skeleton made from stardust riding a rock floating through space.
Fear nothing. (anon)……………………

Post Reply

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 4 guests