218 bee for PC

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
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glen ring
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218 bee for PC

Post by glen ring »

There are a lot of fine marlins chambered in 218 bee that are not being used much.
I think the 218 bee would be an ideal PC round and owners of these fine rifles need to campaign to allow them to be used in competition.
Last edited by glen ring on Thu Mar 23, 2017 2:02 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by hueyw »

it was allowed in the first pc matches. each chicken hit had pretty severe damage.
the competitor using it had to change rifles.
that round was removed from the allowed cartridge list soon after.
sacrificing targets was not an option.

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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by glen ring »

Must have been poor target steel. A 44 mag or 357 mag would have done the same thing.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I think the damage has more to do with the bullets and its velocity. .218 bee using a 55gr bullet travels at 2500-2600 fps. That will easily pucker if not punch right through mild steel which most ranges use for PC.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by Jason »

Glen, I agree with most of your questioning of arbitrary rules and practices that seem to hold back adoption of silhouette (even if I may not love how you deliver the message sometimes :))), but in this case I'd have to agree with 218 Bee not being allowed in the pistol cartridge matches. Just looking at the Hodgdon load data, that little cartridge can push a 50-grain bullet at 2700+ fps or a 30-grain bullet at 3500+ fps, and the 357 Magnum and 44 Magnum aren't really good comparisons. When it comes to target damage, speed is what damages targets more than bullet weight. Even though its parent cartridge is the 32-20, the performance of the 218 Bee is very different and is getting pretty far away from a "rimmed pistol cartridge loaded with a round or flat nosed bullet" like it says in the rulebook.

I help run our local pistol cartridge lever gun matches and we have had multiple shooters shoot those matches with factory 357 or 44 Mag ammo. The 357 Mag factory ammo did no damage to the targets and the 44 Mag factory ammo only slightly bent the tail of one chicken and the head of another chicken due to extreme edge hits. It's probably possible to choose bullets and powder in 357 and 44 Mag loads that will damage the chickens more, but the typical load recipes don't lead to target damage. To compare that to 218 Bee where factory ammo (that I've never seen on a shelf in person but is listed a couple places on the Internet) has velocities of 2700+ FPS and typical loads for start with 2300+ FPS as the minimum load, there is virtually guaranteed target damage. On top of that, there are fairly few flat or round nose .224 bullets with the weight required to reliably take down pistol cartridge rams at a velocity that won't damage the targets, and 218 factory barrels are designed for lightweight bullets at very high velocities so would have trouble stabilizing the heavier, longer bullets at slower speeds.

This seems like a recipe for frustration for both shooters and match directors. You've brought up a lot more worthy stuff to crusade for than this. If you're going to fight against the tide of "don't change anything!" sentiment that we have in silhouette, those other changes still need to happen. :)
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by glen ring »

Another dang 9
That may be the issue. Our full time range guy is an old ihmsa shooter and when he makes targets, he makes them from great steel. He's also the AR-match director so that would explain why he builds such tough targets.

The IHMSA guys shoot half scale with their 223 Pistols and they hold up great . Mild steel would have a hole punched through it if a load were used that hot.

You're probably right about most ranges and their targets.

I think that the 218, with the right loads, would be a very fine PC rifle and give some of those old Marlins a chance to shoot.

Maybe a cast bullet load would make those old rifles sing.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I'm with Jason on this one. The .218 will not stabilize a bullet at the speed you would need. Cast bullets would lead up the barrels at speeds above 1300fps. Best to pass on the .218 bee even if its a great cartridge. I have a .221 Fireball that is great for chucks and yotes. The Bee is best for that job as well. IMO
Also I'd buy one in a minute. Love the obsolete stuff over the "new" wizebang super duper junk.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by Tlee »

glen ring wrote:Another dang 9
That may be the issue. Our full time range guy is an old ihmsa shooter and when he makes targets, he makes them from great steel. He's also the AR-match director so that would explain why he builds such tough targets.

The IHMSA guys shoot half scale with their 223 Pistols and they hold up great . Mild steel would have a hole punched through it if a load were used that hot.

You're probably right about most ranges and their targets.

I think that the 218, with the right loads, would be a very fine PC rifle and give some of those old Marlins a chance to shoot.

Maybe a cast bullet load would make those old rifles sing.
Glen / Jason -

I've had an 1894 chambered in 218Bee in my hands more than once thinking "man this would be the perfect PCCLA rifle, if it were allowed".

IF the 218Bee would stabilize a 50-55gr bullet down at 1700-1800fps, it might be feasible to allow it in PCCLA.... That is (ballistically) exactly what most of the folks in Hunter Pistol are shooting in 22Hornet.

We use mild steel targets at ARC, and they suffer little to no damage with the 50-55gr .224 projectiles up to 1800fps used in Hunter Pistol. However, around 2000fps they start showing some "healthy pucker marks" and edge hits are what I'd classify as damage that will cause me to request the shooter to not use that ammo. FMJBT projectiles seem to do the most damage, followed by SP/HP.

Interestingly, most factory 357mag SP/HP jacketed ammo out of a rifle will also put a healthy divot (about 1/3rd the target thickness deep) on our targets as well, and an edge hit definitely will be significant damage. Factory 38specials and Cowboy Action level 357 loads barely leave a mark. So you guys must be using AR steel or something way better than most of the Hunter Pistol/PCCLA targets I've seen.

BTW, the IHMSA folks are definitely using AR plate. Below is an example of what a common .223 round does at 100meters to a mild steel PCCLA ram....

My .02,

- Tim
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by cedestech »

I know different clubs/match directors are different but IMHO... if you can get your 218 to shoot slow enough that you don't think it'll crater targets then bring it out to a club match. Just be prepared to get yelled at/pay for some targets if you crater them. Most people don't care what you shoot at a club match till you start destroying their targets... YMMV....
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by cslcAl »

I have a Marlin CL in 218 Bee. It is devistating on turkeys. "Live ones" By the rules they are not allowed for silhouette.

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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by boats »

Small diameter bullet punches holes in steel easier than a large one. Like with a drill press need to drill a large hole start with a small bit first.

Out Club Silhouette swingers have to stay locked up or the ARs will ruin them in short order. Bee is almost a .223 effect on steel.

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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by glen ring »

I think most clubs have mild steel targets. I have dimpled big bore targets with a 1800 fps 30-30 round
Our range guy is the IHMSA area director. He uses good steel. The IHMSA guys shoot half scale at big bore distances ( 50, 100, 150 and 200} with a .223 and 6br. The targets take it with no problems. Good steel is expensive .
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by Another Dang 9 »

There is a great slow motion video on YouTube of hits to steel with bullets. Its 10 minutes long but shows what happens to metal when shot. Look for "1 million fps". I tried to add the link but no luck. Both mild steel and hardened steel are shot at. Very cool.
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Re: 218 bee for PC

Post by David M R »

I was shooting a 22-250 with 60 grain bullets cast of pure linotype and a gas check at 2700 fps.

I shot 5 rounds at pistol chickens at my club, 25 yards. Saw the almost through holes and put the rifle away.

AR500 steel would have been fine.
David
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