Scopes. Why not?

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
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snaketail2
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by snaketail2 »

Too many traditionalist in the sport for this to work. But...
Pistol Cartridge targets on the CLA line (50/100/150/200 meters) and scopes no more than 4 power. Naw, not gonna happen. And my idea of shooting one one bank with a handgun - shoot one out of eight banks with a handgun of the same caliber, not gonna happen either.

Lets face it the sport isn't going to change until someone comes up with a way to use AR rifles for silhouette.

How about shooting sticks
How about prone (will require some help getting back up if the seniors do this)
How about letting senior shooters use chairs
How about speed shooting - time how fast it takes to knock down 10 targets (with and without a scope)
And my father-in-laws idea - silhouette golf

Scopes - not in the cards.

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Re: Scopes. Why not?

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BrentD wrote: I'll be interested to see how your scores "improve" with the scope. I would guess they don't change if you shoot several rounds with it.

Who shoots 2200 fps in CLA? I sure don't. I doubt my .38-55 makes it past 1400 fps. Maybe a lot less. My .22 shoots the same subsonic that my .22bpcr uses, and my pistol cartridge rifle is trundling along at around the speed of sound I imagine.
First I wasn't talking 22 or pistol cartridge. Just my 30-30 specifically. And my ram loads. But since you mention it, how do you think your scores won't go up with a scope? I plinked at the much larger lever gun targets with my scoped 22 rifle and never missed. The targets are 2.5 times bigger than normal smallbore. The rifles are slightly less accurate, but certainly not 2.5 times less accurate. I honestly don't follow your logic. But I have rings and a scope for my 30-30 and I'll try that out next time I get to the range. Again, the targets are 2.5 times bigger than what we shoot with hunter and silhouette scoped rifles so I don't see how the scores could not go up. If they don't I will be the first to admit I was wrong, but I'm not. ;)
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by Ken Green »

Westy wrote: Tell me this is a setup Ken your joking right???
Westy: Why are you asking me if I am joking? What are you referring to?

I am all for removing the word "cowboy" from the name of cowboy lever action silhouette. I am all for just calling it lever action silhouette. When I 1st heard "cowboy lever action silhouette", I was thinking it was part of the cowboy action shooting sports. It would make sense to do this.
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by BrentD »

OldRanger wrote:First I wasn't talking 22 or pistol cartridge. Just my 30-30 specifically. And my ram loads. But since you mention it, how do you think your scores won't go up with a scope?
Because they haven't. The data are what the data are. And not just for me. You can see it in everyone else's scores too. BPCR, BPTR, 22BPTR. Why would lever gun be different?

Let me know how it goes.

The phobia of something new and different sounds a lot like what BPCR went through in adopting a scope disciple to compliment the iron sights. I has worked out well and scope shooters now outnumber iron sight shooters. Better yet, we all get to still see our old friends at the matches - which is really what the matches are about. They don't have to give up shooting or competition because their eyes don't see the targets. As a "for instance" the CLA National Match Director for CLA nationals this year, pretty much gave up shooting irons because he couldn't see the targets well. But he can (and does) still shoot scope class. He also is thinking about shooting lever gun (with irons of course). I hope the bigger targets will work okay for him.

Scopes may bring in more new shooters too. Most of the modern day shooters don't think iron sights can be used past 50 ft. They can't imagine buying a gun with iron sights but w/o the scope they don't even consider shooting. My father-in-law is one of them, but there are millions of them out there. Many millions who wouldn't even consider picking up a rifle w/o a scope. Maybe getting them to join in to a scope version of CLA will bring them to the point where they might be tempted to try irons.

In any event, the point is to get more people to come to matches and more people to KEEP coming to matches, because, for the vast majority of participants, the matches are about the people, not the competition.

Think about it. One day I predict this will happen. Probably not soon, but eventually and (I hope) before it is too late. Meanwhile, but some heartburn is to be expected.
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by Jason »

I think you're still comparing apples to grapes here, as the targets used in BPCR are much smaller in apparent size to the shooter than the lever action targets are, and 3/4 of the targets in BPCR are shot in a position other than standing so the shooters have a much slower and smaller wobble area. This much smaller and slower wobble area allows the shooter to take plenty of time to make sure that the front and rear sights are lined up perfectly and the front sight is right on the target. This can't happen in lever action silhouette, which is also why the targets have to be much larger.

If you want to frame this as a way to make the discipline into a shooting competition instead of a seeing competition, then you might have a point and it might level the field a bit between the older and younger shooters. It's just simply not true that it won't affect the scores, though. I say this because I have tried it myself. With the same rifle that I usually shoot for pistol cartridge, the targets were easy to hit with a scope on the rifle. I shot 80 shots straight with no misses. While I haven't shot full matches with a centerfire lever action rifle, I have shot a few shots standing at a ram printed on paper at 200 meters after doing ammo testing from the bench with a scope my my Marlin 336A. After seeing that I shot a bit lower standing than I did off the bench due to different position, it was pretty easy to put shots in a fairly small group in the middle of the target. That's not surprising since the target size is the same that we usually shoot at 500 meters with scope, and now it's brought in to 200 meters.

The main draw, as stated in the rulebook, is to establish the competition as one that can be shot with common rifles without a lot of extra equipment. Adding scopes and mounts will often double the price of admission. I don't agree at all that it would increase attendance at lever action rifle matches, as the few people who buy lever action rifles don't tend to want to scope them.
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by boats »

One of my 39a's has scope blocks, with a Unertl Small Game 3 X mounted it's pretty easy to hit CLA smallbore targets. If you discount equipment geeks opinion, not a lot of mechanical accuracy difference between a 39a and typical NRA rule sporter class bolt action. Scope is a huge advantage hitting small targets.

If somebody wants to shoot a scoped lever action they can, in conventional silhoutte. And it's legal to rebarrel in regular silhouette another thing some clamor for. I say don't ruin a good match with equipment races.

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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by MOTO VITA »

BrentD wrote:
OldRanger wrote:First I wasn't talking 22 or pistol cartridge. Just my 30-30 specifically. And my ram loads. But since you mention it, how do you think your scores won't go up with a scope?
Because they haven't. The data are what the data are. And not just for me. You can see it in everyone else's scores too. BPCR, BPTR, 22BPTR. Why would lever gun be different?

Let me know how it goes.

The phobia of something new and different sounds a lot like what BPCR went through in adopting a scope disciple to compliment the iron sights. I has worked out well and scope shooters now outnumber iron sight shooters. Better yet, we all get to still see our old friends at the matches - which is really what the matches are about. They don't have to give up shooting or competition because their eyes don't see the targets. As a "for instance" the CLA National Match Director for CLA nationals this year, pretty much gave up shooting irons because he couldn't see the targets well. But he can (and does) still shoot scope class. He also is thinking about shooting lever gun (with irons of course). I hope the bigger targets will work okay for him.

Scopes may bring in more new shooters too. Most of the modern day shooters don't think iron sights can be used past 50 ft. They can't imagine buying a gun with iron sights but w/o the scope they don't even consider shooting. My father-in-law is one of them, but there are millions of them out there. Many millions who wouldn't even consider picking up a rifle w/o a scope. Maybe getting them to join in to a scope version of CLA will bring them to the point where they might be tempted to try irons.

In any event, the point is to get more people to come to matches and more people to KEEP coming to matches, because, for the vast majority of participants, the matches are about the people, not the competition.

Think about it. One day I predict this will happen. Probably not soon, but eventually and (I hope) before it is too late. Meanwhile, but some heartburn is to be expected.
I'm pretty sure that more shooters could be gained, particularly in Smallbore, by allowing magazine styles other than tubular. At my local gun shops there are lots of Savage 30-30s languishing on the racks, while a good 336A is hard to find, and expensive. I wonder how many 10-22s and bolt actions would show up for Smallbore matches if they were allowed. As long as the sight standards are maintained I see no advantage to a removable magazine.
Autoloaders and pumps are already allowed, but only if they have tubular magazines.
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by glen ring »

I think that anyone that attaches a scope to a Lever Action rifle should receive 20 strokes with a big stick !!
We would only allow shooters with scoped rifles at our monthly match...and that's for folks just leaving the sight in range or club house. First time shooters shoot for free anyway.

I think leave Lever Action Silhouette alone..except for the name...drop the word cowboy.

I would love to see a lever action class in small bore and high power rifle silhouette. Any rifle legal in CLA for small bore and Center fire rifle..NO SCOPES.

Shooting 1/5 scale targets with my 39 and 500 meter targets with my 30-30 marlin is a hoot.
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by Westy »

glen ring wrote:I think that anyone that attaches a scope to a Lever Action rifle should receive 20 strokes with a big stick !!
We would only allow shooters with scoped rifles at our monthly match...and that's for folks just leaving the sight in range or club house. First time shooters shoot for free anyway.

I think leave Lever Action Silhouette alone..except for the name...drop the word cowboy.

I would love to see a lever action class in small bore and high power rifle silhouette. Any rifle legal in CLA for small bore and Center fire rifle..NO SCOPES.

Shooting 1/5 scale targets with my 39 and 500 meter targets with my 30-30 marlin is a hoot.

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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by Another Dang 9 »

Between bullet drop and momentum I don't think a 30-30 has the umph to knock down the Ram at 500?
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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by cslcAl »

I shot a 336 Marlin with a 24X Leupold in Hunter Rifle at the 2015 Nationals. I did not ding any Rams. I didn't hit many, but all the ones I hit fell. I was using 175 Gr. Sierra MatchKings and single loading them, which is now legal for Hunter rifle. I had serious issues with the wind. Not enough velocity.
The most fun I had was during the practice day I was set up on the bench and a coyote ran from one end of the ram line to the other and back again. I got off 9 shots at the varmit, and was close but no cigar. He for sure was looking for some Charmin.

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Re: Scopes. Why not?

Post by glen ring »

Me, and several of my lever gun buds, could have won a lot of bet money at Raton knocking over 500 meter rams , standing, iron sights with our 30-30 lever guns. The Ram is actually harder to hit than the 1100 yard Buffalo...with a lever gun, iron sights, standing.
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