25-20 Loads

[snaketail2]

Dug up an old thread.
I finally got around to testing some Speer 75gr bullets with H322. Some with wadding, some without. The slow stuff (with wadding) was not satisfactory. Faster loads without wadding did much better.
The best load I tested had 12.5gr of H322 and no over-powder wadding. The Speer 75gr was not crimped, they were single loaded.

I tried H322 loads of 10.0, 10.5, 11.0, 11.5, 12.0 & 12.5. Each got progressively better. 10.0 shot about 4.5" at 100 meters, 12.5 shot just around 2.5" at 100. 13.5gr is listed as a max load. I'll try again soon, but it seems my rifle likes faster loads.

I'm worried that hot loads will shorter the life of my brass - and you know their are a lot like real estate - they ain't making them anymore.

My next range session I'll try 13.0

I'll report back in a week or so.

FYI my standard 9.2gr of 4198 and Speer 75gr. load shot over 5" with a scope at 100 meters (and I use to do well with that load!)

Michael

[1894User]

Have returned from my Caribbean vacation in San Juan and have worked up some loads that I can now report on. Please remember that my results apply to my firearm only. Use any of the data with caution. Start 10% lower and look out for pressure signs. None of the loads showed any high pressure indications, even the published max loads.

All loads were with Starline 32-20 brass formed into 25-20 and trimmed to 1.305 and primed with Win Small Rifle primers. OAL for the Speer 75gr Hot Core bullets was 1.575. All powder charges were measured with a RCBS Charge Master 1500. OK here we go...

Speer 75gr

IMR 4198
10.6gr - 11.2gr - 11.8gr
1 5/8 in - 2 1/2in - 2 7/8in

H110
7.7gr - 8.1gr* - 8.6gr
2 1/2in - 1 3/8in - 2 3/4 in
2 1/4in

2400
7.0gr - 7.4gr - 7.7gr*
3 1/2in - 3 1/4in - 1 1/2in
1 1/2in

AA#9
6.8gr* - 7.2gr - 7.8gr
1 3/8in - 1 5/8in - 2 1/4in
1 3/8in

Hornady 60gr 1.590 OAL

2400
9.0gr - 9.5gr - 10.0gr*
3 5/8in - 3 1/2in - 1 3/5in
3/4in

AA#9
7.5gr* - 8.1gr - 8.8gr
1 1/4in - 2 1/8in - 3 1/2in
2 5/4in

H110
8.0gr - 8.6gr - 9.2gr*
4 3/4in - 1 1/4in - 7/8in
2 3/4in

IMR 4198
12.0gr - 12.gr - 13.0gr
5 1/2in - 6 5/8in - 3 3/4in

*If there is a 3rd line the group is a retest and goes with the load with the *. Could not get it to space correctly.

These shots were all off a very solid bench. Rifle was scoped with a Weaver KT-15 scope. Shot a match this weekend with the rifle. Chose the 75gr bullet with 6.8gr of AA#9. Not the most accurate load, but gave nice round groups every time. Just purchased a Lab Radar Chronograph and it indicated that the most accurate load had an extreme spread of 160fps and the AA#9 with a ES of only 39 fps.

Still have a lot of work to do on this project. Several powders that I have not found to try. As I develop more data I will update. Thanks to all who provided advise and assistance, especially Jason who help interpret the data I collected. This mentor-ship did not prevent him from beating me by four plates. Most accurate loads out of the most accurate rifle still requires the shooter to stand and deliver the shot. He did that better than I.

JW

[snaketail2]

I'm interested in forming 25-20 from Starline 32-20 brass. I've seen instructions that range from easy to ridiculous. Obviously the easier it is the more likely I am to try it...not going to be cutting 270 dies in half or "welding" anything.
Can you describe how you form the 25-20 cases?
Michael

[1894User]

snaketail2,

From new brass resize with 32-20 die. You can trim at this point and it will save you some time, but I did not have a 32 cal pilot so I did not. Anneal the brass. I purchased the Sage Annealing Machine and it worked fine. There a dozens of machines and other older techniques described elsewhere. Run the well lubed brass through a redding forming die. Learning how much lube to use is critical. This is the point I lost all my brass, either from not enough and crushing the shoulders or too much and dimpling the cases. Then do a final resize using a 25-20 standard die. I highly recommend using the Hornady dies. The redding vent holes are too small and clog up and the RCBS were rough in the neck and shoulder area. Trim the cases and reload as normal. The Hornady seating die aligns the bullet to the point that if you chafer the inside of the case mouth you do not need to flare the case. I have fired over 700 rounds and each piece of brass has been reloaded twice. I have not lost a case since the forming die and there I lost 14 total cases out of 520.

Hope this helps. There is a lot more technique to loading 25-20 and 32-20, but the level of accuracy from these old cartridges is astounding. They can be made into near minute of angle precision instruments. I now have three Marlin 1894s that will shoot 1.5 MOA or better. Takes away all my excuses. Weather...it is the weathers' fault I missed that Chicken...I hate chickens...Could not have been my poor aim and lack of follow-through...Weather!!!

Wish you the best of luck. Sweep'em Clean!

JW

[GTS]

I may have missed it, but I did not see the distance at which you were shooting.

[snaketail2]

I may have missed it, but I did not see the distance at which you were shooting.

Greg:
Pistol Cartridge distances. I have seen a 25-20 take big CLA animals, but I don't think I'd try it. The shooter (Texas State Match 2016) had no problem with chickens and turkeys, but pigs and rams were a challenge.

The rest of this is a rant - skip it if you are easily bored.
If I owned a coffee shop and made a special blend ever so often and it sold out every time I made it...I'd start thinking "maybe I should make it more often!"
Or, if I owned a BBQ restaurant and had people in line every day and made most of them mad because I would sell out every day, with the line around the block...maybe I'd think, "I should make more!"
If I were a bullet maker and made 75gr fn .257 bullets once a year and they ALL SOLD OUT the day they were posted on line - I might think about making more.
If I were in the brass business and .218 Bee and .32-20 brass was available I might think about making some of the middle child - the 25-20.
But NO!
Speer can't make the 75gr FN bullets more than once a year and Starline and Hornady can't be bribed into making 25-20 (I suppose it cost too much.)
And the good BBQ places still sell out early.
This defies logic - I have a MBA and this sure isn't the way they taught us in marketing classes.
End of rant - thank you for reading this far.

[GTS]

Michael,

Thanks for the rambling reply....I guess.

My question however, remains unanswered. I suppose I should have directed it to 1894User specifically. I see bullets, powder charges and group sizes, but no reference to the distance to the target.

Greg

[Jason]

I don't remember if those groups were shot at 100 yards or 100 meters, but it was one of those. I think it was 100 yards. He was working up a load to use in our pistol cartridge silhouette matches, which he did well at on Saturday.

[1894User]

All groups were at 100 yds.

[1894User]

All groups were at 100 yds. Jason is being kind. I was a distant third and Jason (1st place) was 4 animals ahead. I tried a technique that he told me not too and it cost me on the Turkey and Ram lines. Especially Rams. Will not err that way again, my lesson has been learned. As a low life AA shooter, shooting a rifle at match for the first time I am still not that unhappy. OK the 9 on chickens makes me unhappy.

Peace and Grace to all this holiday season.

JW

[snaketail2]

Uh Oh - Speer is trimming back their offerings.
I can't confirm this, but two people (two web sites) told me the 75gr Speer has been dropped, as well as the 110gr .308 bullet.
Waiting to hear from Speer.

If I re-barrel my 25-20 to 32-20 would it be legal?

Michael

[edgehit]

You can reline the barrel. I won’t protest you!

“. Barrels must be original or may be relined. Original barrels re-bored to a larger caliber are allowed.”

If your 25-20 has a great bore, just switch over to cast lead. It’s a PIA so maybe relining is a good idea. Or buy another rifle

[1894User]

Michael,

The Hornady 60gr bullet will still be available, though just as intermittent as the Speer has been. It turned in some really good groups (10gr of 2400 worked really well). Would not reline a perfectly good 25-20 to 32-20 if Speer drops the bullet. I got three inch 10 shot groups with lead bullets just fire forming the brass. Would go that direction before I changed the barrel.

Hope to get out soon and run some H322 and do a retest on the 2400 loads. May try to change the crimp on the 60gr 2400 load to see if I can get the extreme spread on velocity down to something reasonable.

Best wishes to all for the New Year.

JW

[snaketail2]

JW
I did some testing with H322 and my remaining 75gr Speers and I noticed the cases look quite stressed from the higher pressure.
I've had good results with 4198 & 4227 and LilGun has been OK too.
I have enough Speer bullets to get through the national this year. I'll decide what to do after Raton.
Michael
PS: I loaded some Hornady 60 gr bullets and put them in the same bullet case at the 75gr Speers - you have to look carefully at each round to tell them apart - and that don't shoot anywhere near each other.
Hornady 60s will be my choice now, with lead being a very distant 3rd place.

If it gets to be too much of a problem I'll simply shoot my .357 and stop worrying about developing the "right" load.
M

[1894User]

Michael,
4198 was a very frustrating powder for me. In the 5 shot groups I would get 3 or 4 almost touching and then a flyer 1 and half inches or more away. It was consistent at doing so with both bullets. 4227 loads I did not publish, but they were some what the same only it was usually two really good groups. Two shots in one and three in the other, they just were never very close to each other. Still want to try the H322, but the weather is a bit cold here in the Great Northwest. Also want to play with crimp on the 10gr of 2400 with the 60gr.

Also have a perfectly fine 357 rifle with 24 inch barrel that will shoot under two inches at a 100 all day long with ammo from my Dillon 650. So why do I reload this stuff on a single stage press. I don't know. I guess I like the challenge. My wife says there is something wrong with me...she may be right.

JW