CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Centerfires, rimfires, pistol cartridges and everything in between.
lijeboy
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by lijeboy »

1894USER: I would strongly suggest you get a ruling from the silhouette department before getting too invested in this round. It's my understanding the .308 Marlin Express, having a semi-rimmed and not a rimmed case, is not legal for CLA.
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
1894User
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by 1894User »

Thank you for your kind concern. I have posted an e-mail this evening to the NRA and if it like the last one it will be a couple of weeks before I hear anything. In the mean time I will proceed with load development. Will happily post when I get a reply.

JW
hugh
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 64
Joined: Wed May 25, 2011 5:00 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by hugh »

lijeboy wrote: Wed Dec 20, 2017 6:44 pm 1894USER: I would strongly suggest you get a ruling from the silhouette department before getting too invested in this round. It's my understanding the .308 Marlin Express, having a semi-rimmed and not a rimmed case, is not legal for CLA.
so sayeth the Nationals MATCH DIRECTOR

better get a registered letter
lijeboy
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by lijeboy »

The .308 Marlin Express is a cartridge developed in 2007 by Marlin Firearms and Hornady. It is based on the .307 Winchester with a goal to duplicate .308 Winchester performance. The cartridge uses a slightly shorter, semi-rimmed case similar to that of the .220 Swift to function in lever action rifles.


Below is a photo example of the difference between "rimmed" and "semi-rimmed" cases.
rimless or rimmed.gif


For clarification, the NRA Silhouette Rule Book states the following on cases:

1. Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette -
(a) Any lever action center fire rifle .25 caliber
or larger
with a tubular magazine of original manufacturer or
replica thereof. A rimmed case loaded with a round
or flat nosed bullet must be used
.
Exception: .30 Remington and .35 Remington are allowed

2. Pistol Cartridge Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette
-
(a) Any lever action rifle with a tubular magazine
. A rimmed pistol cartridge loaded with a round or flat
nosed bullet must be used
, i.e. 25-20, 32-20, 38’s,
357 Magnum, 38-40, 44’s, 44-40, 45 Colt, 45 Long Colt,
.22 Magnum and .22 long rifle.


So to me, that ends the issue. If you get a contrary ruling from the Silhouette Department, please share it with us.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
User avatar
Jason
Uber Master Poster
Uber Master Poster
Posts: 3002
Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
Location: Snohomish, WA

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by Jason »

Thanks for digging into this for us, Jeanne. I was hoping that it would be as simple as that picture makes it seem, too. Unfortunately, all three brands of 30-30 Winchester brass that I have has a small channel, for lack of a better word, just in front of the rim and then a rim of larger diameter than the case body just like the "semi-rimmed" picture there. I can't find a channel in the SAAMI spec for 30-30 Win max cartridge and minimum chambers here, but they all essentially look like this picture from the LoadData.com website.

Image

I can't find any cartridges in all of my inventory that have no channel there like the "rimmed" picture. I don't have any 308MX brass here in hand, but I think the differering factor may be the ratio of the rim size versus the case body. Here's a link to the SAAMI specs for the 308MX, showing max cartridge and minimum chamber dimensions. Here's a similar picture to the 30-30 Win above from the LoadData.com website.

Image

It's pretty obvious from that picture and the SAAMI specs that the 308MX is very far from having a rebated rim like in the picture, as a rebated rim means that the rim is smaller in diameter than the case body like that picture shows. If the 308MX did in fact have a rebated rim, then I doubt we would have ever seen this thread. In fact, the rim on the 308MX cartridge is the same size (.506") as the rim on the 30-30 Win cartridge, but the case body just before the channel is slightly smaller on the 30-30 Win. That makes the difference between the diameter of the case body at its widest point and the rim diameter slightly larger for the 30-30 Win.

The usual terminology for a rimmed cartridge means that the cartridge headspaces on the rim of the case instead of on the shoulder or mouth of the case. Unfortunately, there's no official designation that I've been able to find between "rimmed" and "semi-rimmed" because both officially headspace off of the rim and one just has a less pronounced rim. If there's anyone still around who was there when the current rules were written, it would be interesting to see what the context was for that rule. The exception noted, 30 Remington and 35 Remington, have essentially no difference between case body diameter and rim diameter, so it's clear that they'd need to be be stated as exceptions to be allowed.
lijeboy
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by lijeboy »

Bottom line, the .308 mx is not legal for CLA in my opinion. Nothing short of a ruling from the Silhouette Department will change my mind, and they are the only ones whose opinion matters on this subject.

Mike Haynes and my husband were both told by the Silhouette Department this is not a legal round and I've seen nothing to the contrary from them.
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
User avatar
Another Dang 9
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I finally got down to my basement and found that Speer still lists the .307 Win in its books. It has lite bullets down to 100 gr. Listed you may want to pick one up if you don't already have one.
It also looks from what others have said that it is not an approved cartridge for CLA. CLA is about old and obsolete which is why new and improved will always get you in trouble.
Good luck.
Its a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milk bone underwear.
NRA Endowment Member
1894User
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by 1894User »

NRA has acknowledged receipt of the e-mail. Still waiting reply. Experience has been they are never all that fast. Have a great holiday season one and all.

JW
1894User
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by 1894User »

And the answer is: As long as it is loaded with a flat or round nose bullet and it will not damage the targets 308 Marlin Express is legal for Lever Action Silhouette.

E-Mail from NRA Competitive Shooting Division Below:


Subject: 308 cartridge explanation
From: Epley, Beth (BEpley@nrahq.org)
Date: Thursday, January 4, 2018 10:12 AM
James,
Per our NRA Silhouette experts:
1. HPR: This cartridge is certainly legal in High Power Rifle Silhouette (subject
only to the target damage requirements, but the energy/velocity/ballistics
indicate it should be fine).
2. LAS: This cartridge is typically NOT loaded with round/flat nose bullets,
which would be a requirement for Lever Action Silhouette, but if it were loaded
with round nose bullets, it would be fine there too (subject again to the target
damage regulation). This cartridge was designed for tubular magazines using a
polymer tip. This is a new idea circa 2009 as previously only round/flat nose
bullets were used in centerfire tubular magazines. Our rule reads, "All bullets
must be round or flat nosed suitable for tubular magazine use." Based on the
plain reading of our current rule a pointed polymer tip would NOT be allowed.
3. LAPCS: This cartridge is semi-rimmed, which counts as rimmed. Our rule
reads, "A rimmed pistol cartridge loaded with a round or flat nosed bullet must
be used " 308 Marlin Express is not a "pistol cartridge" by any normal
definition, and we believe that it would be illegal. However, Lever Action Pistol
Cartidge also requires a round or flat nosed bullet based on the plain language
of the rule.
Please let me know if you have any further questions.
Sincerely,
Beth Epley, PMP
NRA Manager Tournament Resources
General Operations / Competitive Shooting Division
703-267-1485 | bepley@nrahq.org
National Rifle Association | Explore.NRA.org
11250 Waples Mill Rd, Fairfax, VA 22030
1 of 2
1/4/18, 6:03 PMPrint
More information HERE on the NRA National Championships
More information HERE on the National Police Shooting Championships
More information HERE on NRA Clubs and HERE on NRA State Associations
This e-mail and any files transmitted with it are confidential and intended solely
for the use of the individual or entity to whom they are addressed. If you have
received this e-mail in error, please notify the sender immediately, delete the
message from your computer, and do not forward it.


Hope that for the purposes of this forum the issue is put to bed. Now to go back to the fun part...shooting, which sadly requires load development...which I think is where I started. Hogdon had some Sie 125gr loads I will start with these - Varget, IMR 4064, WW 748, and IMR 4520 (if I can find any).

One last request. From the tone of many of the postings there are very strong beliefs that are contrary to the e-mail above. When you challenge it with the NRA I hope that it will be done in a professional and polite manner. Have spoken to Beth Epley twice, she is a kind and responsive person. She does not shoot Silhouette and has no vested interest how this question was decided. It is fine that there are disagreements it does no one honour to be disagreeable.

Best wishes to all on a great New Year - except them steel chicken!!!

JW
lijeboy
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 467
Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by lijeboy »

Please see the attached letter from Aaron Farmer, Deputy Director of Competitions at the NRA.

This is the final word on the .308 Marlin Express for 2018. It will NOT be allowed at the Nationals in 2018.
You do not have the required permissions to view the files attached to this post.
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
1894User
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by 1894User »

Moderator - Please delete this line of inquiry. It appears there is no such thing as a CPT Load in 308 Marlin Express. Best wishes to all.

JW
User avatar
Another Dang 9
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1333
Joined: Thu Dec 10, 2009 7:24 pm
Location: The Peoples Republic of Massachusetts

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I'm sure you can still use it at local club matches but you will be creating your own loads as none exist for mild loads. There are still many good lever rifles out there at a good price. Don't give up.
Its a dog eat dog world and I'm wearing milk bone underwear.
NRA Endowment Member
1894User
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 40
Joined: Sat Sep 10, 2016 6:29 pm

Re: CPT Loads for 308 Marlin Express

Post by 1894User »

Giving up is not in my nature. Now to find a 28 inch 30-30 with a full length mag to mate with a Lothar-Walther 25-35 WCF 1-8in liner. Have a third weight hammer driven by a wolf extra power spring to get the lock time to that of a Remington 700...Add weights to the mag tube...Are synthetic stocks legal in CLA? (Just joking!)

JW
Post Reply