rule when shooting out of order

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rule when shooting out of order

Post by JohninNH » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:32 am

Was at a CLA match yesterday where I noted an older shooter (that was spotting) would not allow the shooter to fire a fifth shot to finish the relay after shooting animal 3 out of turn when he should have been on animal 2. This fellow who has been around for years and is very experienced says that was the IHMSA and NRA Hunter Pistol Rule. In essence, the shooter was not allowed to go back and call a previously missed animal for his fifth shot.
Apparently, at one time anyway, you lost two animals when shooting out of order, at least in pistol competition.
Could someone bring me up to date on the rules and enlighten me about the history of this?
Thanks,
John

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by tnchicknsnipr » Sun Jun 24, 2018 6:56 am

A common problem is long time shooters do not keep up with the rules. The second animal would be ruled a miss. The shooter would keep shooting were as the fourth becomes number 3 ,the fifth becomes number four, and whatever is standing furherest to the left of that bank becomes number five.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by BrentD » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:00 am

I agree with all of that.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by JohninNH » Sun Jun 24, 2018 7:49 am

That's my understanding too but am curious to know when this changed or was it only a pistol rule or.....??
Thanks for the confirmation.
John

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Sun Jun 24, 2018 9:56 am

I am unfamiliar with NRA or IHMSA pistol rules, but the CLA shooter got robbed the chance to score another X. See page 20, Section 10.7, note (b) in the current 2016 NRA rifle rules.

http://rulebooks.nra.org/documents/pdf/ ... r-book.pdf

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by JDMANN » Mon Jun 25, 2018 2:47 am

Which is why I carry Rule Books to every match. The shooter should have at least called for an alibi or ruling from the R/O.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by JohninNH » Mon Jun 25, 2018 4:56 am

Thank you all for your replies. To somewhat simplify my original explanation, I left out the part about stepping stepping in and telling the shooter he did get one more shot which he took. We are all a relaxed bunch for the most part and there was never anything uncivil or heated in any of this. I was asking more out of interest about the "old" rule as I had never heard of it. Certainly it never appeared in the lever gun silhouette rules.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by No1_49er » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 am

I'm going to disagree with the idea that the fifth shot would be allowed after shooting a target out of order, i.e. shot number 3 instead of 2.
As I read the rule, 'Hits out of sequence are scored as misses' and by shooting on 3 instead of 2 he has forfeit any chance to go back to 2, and because it was out of order 3 is also a miss. Therefore, the net result is 2 misses, and one live cartridge at the end of the series.

Let us now assume that he has next fired on target 4, but before the shot is taken at 5 the wind takes 5 from the stand. ONLY in that circumstance may the shooter go back to target (in this instance) 2, or the left most of any that remain standing. 'When a silhouette is down before a shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return to the left-most target remaining in the bank'.

A shot out of order is always two misses. May seem harsh, but a shooter must always identify his target. 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot
at each, left to right, in order
If we don't do it that way and invoke the penalty we might as well shoot them in any old order so long as no more than 5 rounds were used on the 5 targets.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:58 am

No1_49er wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 am
I'm going to disagree with the idea that the fifth shot would be allowed after shooting a target out of order, i.e. shot number 3 instead of 2.
As I read the rule, 'Hits out of sequence are scored as misses' and by shooting on 3 instead of 2 he has forfeit any chance to go back to 2, and because it was out of order 3 is also a miss. Therefore, the net result is 2 misses, and one live cartridge at the end of the series.

Let us now assume that he has next fired on target 4, but before the shot is taken at 5 the wind takes 5 from the stand. ONLY in that circumstance may the shooter go back to target (in this instance) 2, or the left most of any that remain standing. 'When a silhouette is down before a shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return to the left-most target remaining in the bank'.

A shot out of order is always two misses. May seem harsh, but a shooter must always identify his target. 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot
at each, left to right, in order
If we don't do it that way and invoke the penalty we might as well shoot them in any old order so long as no more than 5 rounds were used on the 5 targets.
#1 49er, who are you? No malice, just like to put a screen name with a face/person.
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cslcAl » Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:51 am

No1 49er, your interpretation of the rule is the way it was years ago, back then you lost 2 targets. The rule was changed to the wording now and you score the shot fired out of turn a miss with no additional target penalty. IE; the shooter shot #3 for #2; #2 is scored as a miss and he should have continued firing targets to the right and gone back to the left targets if needed to complete 5 shots.
A lot of these rules are ambiguous leading to much confusion. But this is the way it is.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by No1_49er » Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 pm

cslcAl wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:51 am
No1 49er, your interpretation of the rule is the way it was years ago, back then you lost 2 targets. The rule was changed to the wording now and you score the shot fired out of turn a miss with no additional target penalty. IE; the shooter shot #3 for #2; #2 is scored as a miss and he should have continued firing targets to the right and gone back to the left targets if needed to complete 5 shots.
A lot of these rules are ambiguous leading to much confusion. But this is the way it is.

Al Foust
I do not accept that your interpretation is correct, and there should never be room for ambiguity which in this case I do not believe there is.

The rule books that I have go back to 2009 for IHMSA & IMSSU, and 2010 for NRA. From those years and up to the current versions, each Associations year on year book is word for word the same w.r.t. scoring.
Can you post the text of the rule before it "was changed to the wording now", or advise the year of that change?

NRA 2010
10.7(b)
Each competitor has a bank of 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot at each, left to right, in order, in the appropriate time. Hits out of sequence are scored as misses; for example, the second shot hitting the third silhouette is a miss. When a silhouette is down before a shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the shooter still has shots unfired and no targets remain standing on that shooters or another's bank, a range alibi will be declared. The bank will be reset, and the competitor will be allowed a "Ready" period and 30 seconds for each remaining shot.

NRA 2016
10.7(b)
Word for word the same

2009 IHMSA
E 4
The following shot conditions shall be scored as a miss:
C) An incorrect target knocked down out of sequence. If the incorrect target is to the right of the correct target, the correct target is scored
as a miss, as is the target knocked down
. The maximum penalty shall be two targets for each single occurrence.

2016 IHMSA
E 4
Word for word the same

IMSSU 2009
Section VI
F. Scoring
Targets are shot in sequence, left to right, one shot fired at each target. If a target is knocked down out of sequence, it is scored as an “O” as is the intended target. The penalty shall be two targets. For example, a competitor's third shot knocks down the fifth target in his bank. That shot will be scored as an “O”, as will target five.

IMSSU 2013
Section VI
Word for word the same.

Now, for the benefit of cedestech, "#1 49er, who are you? No malice, just like to put a screen name with a face/person", I am a shooter from the other side of the Pacific, so we're unlikely to have been around the same venues together.
But, this is the rule from my association:-

SECTION 14 : SCORING
14.1 HOW TO SCORE
All shots are scored by marking either a “0” for a miss, or an “X” for a hit in the correct spaces on the scorecard. The scorecard is marked in the same order as the targets are fired, beginning in the first space on the left and progressing to the right until the stage is complete. Hits out of sequence are scored as misses. For example, the second shot hitting the third silhouette is a miss. In this case, it is a double miss, as only the remaining two silhouettes may be fired on, the competitor cannot fire his third shot at the untouched second silhouette.

From the above, I do not see any reason that the NRA rule should be interpreted any different from those other associations, albeit that the wording is not quite the same but perhaps less ambiguous.
The wording is quite clear; the targets are shot in sequence, left to right. There is no way you can go back to a target on the left except in the very specific case of the next target, in order, not being there, otherwise you are in essence shooting an alibi without calling it, and in my book wouldn't be allowed anyway. Out of sequence = miss.

Make of my interpretation as you will.

49er

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 pm

No1_49er wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 pm

I am a shooter from the other side of the Pacific, so we're unlikely to have been around the same venues together.
But, this is the rule from my association:-

I take it to mean you are in Europe then correct?
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by No1_49er » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:11 pm

cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 pm
No1_49er wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 pm

I am a shooter from the other side of the Pacific, so we're unlikely to have been around the same venues together.
But, this is the rule from my association:-

I take it to mean you are in Europe then correct?
Go West young man, West. The Pacific.
Europe? That would be the Atlantic.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:22 pm

Cut and paste from 2016 rule book.

14.3 How to Score -
All shots are scored by marking either an “O” for a miss, or an “X” for a hit in the correct spaces on
the scorecard. The scorecard is marked in the same order as the targets are fire
d, i.e., beginning in the first space on the left and progressing to the right until
the stage is complete. Hits out of sequence are scored as misses; for example,
the second shot hitting the third silhouette is a miss. (See Rule 10.7(b)).

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands>>>

(b) Each competitor has a bank of 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot
at each, left to right, in order, in the appropriate time. Hits out of
sequence are scored as misses; for example, the second shot hitting
the third silhouette is a miss. When a silhouette is down before a
shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return
to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired
rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the
shooter still has shots unfired and no targets rema
in standing on that shooters or another’s bank, a range alibi will
be declared.

I'm not the sharpest tool, but where is it written that both the out of order shot and the next animal (2 animals) are penalized?

edit:

(let me rephrase that, where is it written that both the animal missed AND the animal hit are to be counted as misses?)

If your assertion is that any animals shot out of order are misses then if you shot #2 instead of #1 on your first shot the entire bank is missed. Because now your second shot is at animal #3 because #2 is missing and so on... unless you just burn a shot into the vacant spot on the rail #2 used to occupy as your second shot so now your third shot is at animal #3. None of that is in the rule book.
Last edited by cedestech on Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:50 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:26 pm

No1_49er wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:11 pm
cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:08 pm
No1_49er wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 6:10 pm

I am a shooter from the other side of the Pacific, so we're unlikely to have been around the same venues together.
But, this is the rule from my association:-

I take it to mean you are in Europe then correct?
Go West young man, West. The Pacific.
Europe? That would be the Atlantic.
LOL! Long day, long evening with contractors.... yes, pacific west. Australia then?

I should say my name is Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg (Houston) Texas, any cursory Bing search (my Google is broke) will get you all the info on me there is to be had.

I dislike boards like this that allow anonymity.
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

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