rule when shooting out of order

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cedestech
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:49 pm

I edited the last bit 2 posts up....
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by No1_49er » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:51 pm

cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:22 pm
Cut and paste from 2016 rule book.

14.3 How to Score -
All shots are scored by marking either an “O” for a miss, or an “X” for a hit in the correct spaces on
the scorecard. The scorecard is marked in the same order as the targets are fire
d, i.e., beginning in the first space on the left and progressing to the right until
the stage is complete. Hits out of sequence are scored as misses; for example,
the second shot hitting the third silhouette is a miss. (See Rule 10.7(b)).

10.7 Firing Line Procedures and Commands>>>

(b) Each competitor has a bank of 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot
at each, left to right, in order, in the appropriate time. Hits out of
sequence are scored as misses; for example, the second shot hitting
the third silhouette is a miss. When a silhouette is down before a
shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return
to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired
rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the
shooter still has shots unfired and no targets rema
in standing on that shooters or another’s bank, a range alibi will
be declared.

I'm not the sharpest tool, but where is it written that both the out of order shot and the next animal (2 animals) are penalized?
It is not written in the words that you want to see. The rule is:- Each competitor has a bank of 5 silhouettes at which to fire, one shot at each, left to right, in order, in the appropriate time. Hits out of sequence are scored as misses; for example, the second shot hitting the third silhouette is a miss.

Where does it say that you can now go back to a previous target that you missed but which is still standing, presumably to expend your five allowable shots.

Perhaps I can explain it this way.
The silhouette match consists of two animals which shall be shot in order, left to right. The shooter intends to engage the first target but hits the second. He can not now go to the first target, again, because they must be shot left to right. Therefore, the first shot is a miss (the wrong animal was hit) and the second (first) can not be shot (out of order) so also is a miss i.e. two misses.

I hope that will explain why you have lost two targets.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:54 pm

cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:22 pm



Where does it say that you can now go back to a previous target that you missed but which is still standing, presumably to expend your five allowable shots.


"a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return
to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired
rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the
shooter still has shots unfired and no targets rema
in standing on that shooters or another’s bank, a range alibi will
be declared. "

Right there.
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by No1_49er » Mon Jun 25, 2018 8:25 pm

cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:54 pm
cedestech wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 7:22 pm



Where does it say that you can now go back to a previous target that you missed but which is still standing, presumably to expend your five allowable shots.


"a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the shooter still has shots unfired and no targets remain standing on that shooters or another’s bank, a range alibi will be declared. "

Right there.
The complete sentence is this:- "When a silhouette is down before a shot, a shooter will fire on the remaining ones in order, then return to the left-most target remaining in the bank and fire any unfired rounds at the remaining silhouette or silhouettes as required. If the shooter still has shots unfired and no targets remain standing on that shooters or another’s bank, a range alibi will be declared."

When a silhouette is down, before a shot, is the allowance to return to any targets to the left of those already shot.
It does not apply to the missed target which remains standing, unless you are shooting it because a correctly ordered target is down.
Please see my explanation as to how it would work for a two shot match.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Tue Jun 26, 2018 4:50 am

You are arguing semantics....

I have been shooting this game for a while. Maybe not as long as you, but I am a match director and at least half the people on this board are match directors, in the US, shooting NRA rules.

The way I understand the rule, and the way everyone I have shot with understands the rule is if you shoot out of order, that shot is a miss, one miss, then you carry on with your bank.

If someone with the NRA cares to state something different then what everyone has been doing with a rule that hasn't changed wording in many years, I and I am sure everyone else will adhere to it.

Until then, a shot out of order is a penalty of one animal, the one you shot out of order.

Carry on....
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by Sporty » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:10 am

It all depends on what "one shot at each" means.

To me it means each animal has its own "shot". (quotes for emphasis) A shooter that shot down the wrong target to the right of his or her own bank of animals can return to the left most target remaining on the bank as per the rules for a silhouette being down before the "shot" (quotes for emphasis).

In other words, each shot in the 5-shot sequence is tied to a corresponding target. Shot #1 is for target #1. Shot #2 is for target #2. So, if shot #2 knocks down target #3 then target #3 is down before shot #3 and the rules are applied as if the wind or a crossfire "shot" knocked down target #3.

In another example, a shooter is allowed to continue with shot #3 at target #3 who has already taken shot #1 target #1 and missed and then knocked down target #1 while taking shot #2.

An alibi can be called if there no targets remaining to complete the five shot sequence.

Please consider this. If a crossfire "shot" knocks down a target that has not been "shot" at yet, the shooter who was crossfired upon would be penalized by No1_49er's interpretation of the rules. I believe we all can agree the only shooter suffering a penalty would be the one who had done the crossfire.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by BrentD » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:15 am

This issue has been settled long ago and I cannot believe there is a match director in the country that penalizes anyone two targets for one out of order shot. Maybe it is time to move on.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by SteveD » Tue Jun 26, 2018 7:35 am

cslcAl wrote:
Mon Jun 25, 2018 9:51 am
No1 49er, your interpretation of the rule is the way it was years ago, back then you lost 2 targets. The rule was changed to the wording now and you score the shot fired out of turn a miss with no additional target penalty. IE; the shooter shot #3 for #2; #2 is scored as a miss and he should have continued firing targets to the right and gone back to the left targets if needed to complete 5 shots.
A lot of these rules are ambiguous leading to much confusion. But this is the way it is.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Tue Jun 26, 2018 9:16 am

I gave away two pre 1999 score books to new shooters. They never came back. :roll: My '99 book 10.7 (b) wording is the same as current 2016. Here in the USA you take all five shots starting over with the left most target. No two target penalty. Period.

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by psteiger » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am

So what happens if Cathy Winstead eats artificially colored blue corn tortilla chips and shoots #5 animal on my bank before the fire using a grip that touched the side of the mag in her rifle that she single loads?

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:39 am

psteiger wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am
So what happens if Cathy Winstead eats artificially colored blue corn tortilla chips and shoots #5 animal on my bank before the fire using a grip that touched the side of the mag in her rifle that she single loads?
Scotch... no matter the question, scotch is the answer... :)
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by dustinflint » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:42 am

psteiger wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am
So what happens if Cathy Winstead eats artificially colored blue corn tortilla chips and shoots #5 animal on my bank before the fire using a grip that touched the side of the mag in her rifle that she single loads?
In that case everyone at the match gets a two-shot penalty, the nationals get moved out of New Mexico and PA and we all have to immediately switch to factory rifles in Hunter Rifle - I shouldn't have to tell you this, it is clearly written in the rules.

Dustin

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by cedestech » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:50 am

dustinflint wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:42 am
psteiger wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:25 am
So what happens if Cathy Winstead eats artificially colored blue corn tortilla chips and shoots #5 animal on my bank before the fire using a grip that touched the side of the mag in her rifle that she single loads?
In that case everyone at the match gets a two-shot penalty, the nationals get moved out of New Mexico and PA and we all have to immediately switch to factory rifles in Hunter Rifle - I shouldn't have to tell you this, it is clearly written in the rules.

Dustin
I can use my 3X9 Simmons scope though correct?
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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by dustinflint » Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:58 am

cedestech wrote:
Tue Jun 26, 2018 10:50 am
I can use my 3X9 Simmons scope though correct?
I don't think you get to use a scope unless it came already mounted to the rifle as a package deal from the manufacturer. The rules are ambiguous on this...

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Re: rule when shooting out of order

Post by Hawkeye7br » Tue Jun 26, 2018 12:45 pm

I still shoot IHMSA. As far as I know, the penalty rule is still in effect for IHMSA events. So yes, a hit target to the right of the intended target is a double miss in IHMSA. I understand other disciplines may vary.

Also, in most matches I attend, if the wind blows down a target, the shooter can fire at a previously missed target as his 5th shot. Sometimes we even shoot an available target in the next bank after first calling the shot or being instructed by the spotter. This prevents unnecessary alibis from adding time to a match on a windy day.

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