Leather vests in Lever Action

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lone ringer
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Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by lone ringer » Fri Sep 07, 2018 11:18 am

I was informed that leather vests had been used in LA competition last weekend in PA by some shooters. Without mentioning names a shooter that questioned their use was told by the match director that he had called Aaron Farmer with the NRA and was told that some HP and SB shooters had signed a petition asking to make them legal for LA and that the Silhouette Committee had now approved their use in lever gun matches.

This really sounds bogus to me because we have more than once discussed the use of leather vests at competitor meetings at Nationals in Raton an the consensus has been that they should not be made legal to be use in Lever Action competition. As a matter of fact this year we had a lengthy discussion regarding shooting vests for LA, some recommendations where made and the wording in the rule book was supposed to be revised to let us know that only shotgun vests would be legal for LA competition.
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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by 44 mag » Fri Sep 07, 2018 12:18 pm

I saw a few shooters at the Nationals useing them and talked to a line officer who was trying to find the rule about them in the rule book. I talked to the NRA to see if it was ok by email and was called back and told it was ok. I dont feel the person i talked to had any idea what i was talking about but said SB and HP shooters had complained about not being able to use the vest they already had. This is the reason i have questioned it more. I have also been told by people who attended the Flordia State match the most of the shooters use the leather vests in that match. I dont want to cause a big issue over this but i do want it clarified by someone who knows what we are talking about.
And also the 2 that wore them the first day in PA did not use them the rest of the match. Lets just get this figured out so we all know. I did talk to a Arron at the NRA and i may have misspoke when i said Aaron Farmer as the Arron that called me just said Arron from compition divition. It may not have been Aaron Farmer but i have sent a email to Aaron Farmer as well to see what we can find out. I never said anything about the committee saying it was as ok as know they dont meet till November .
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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by snaketail2 » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:09 pm

Leather, cotton, whatever - we already have rules for vests
http://www.steelchickens.com/forums/sea ... &start=105
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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by 44 mag » Fri Sep 07, 2018 2:14 pm

I agree i dosent matter the material if the 4” pipe fits in it then it will not add any extra support. But we still need clarification on this matter before it gets out of hand like most things do.

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by lijeboy » Fri Sep 07, 2018 4:58 pm

Here's the rule that would apply, in my opinion.

Rule 3.1.3(e)

Binoculars may be used for spotting. Spotting scopes or stands may
not be used. Clothing that adds stability to the shooting position
is not allowed.
Rule 6.9, concerning wind flags will not apply.
Personal wind indicating devices are not allowed in the vicinity of
the competitors.

The silhouette committee has not met this year, so the rule has not been changed.

Let's wait to see what Aaron says before this rumor grows legs and outruns us all.
~Jeanne Ring

"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. " Mae West

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by atomicbrh » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:28 pm

There is an equipment race in lever action.
No kind of vest should have ever been allowed.
Only true factory sights should have been allowed.
No Williams. No peeps. No globes. No inserts. No Lyman. No sights that can be adjusted on the fly between animals.
I never saw any of that stuff on a Henry, Winchester or Marlin lever action until I went to a silhouette match.
The lightest vest is the cordura Creedmoor.
Second lightest is probably the Hardscrabble Bob Allen with the leather sewn over it.
Third lightest is the Sanchez because the leather is so thin.
Fourth lightest is the Hawkeye.
Heaviest is the all leather Hardscrabble because Chris uses leather that is thicker and heavier than the other four types of vests.
It is not the stiffness of the leather that gives an advantage in the vests but the weight of it pulling down on the shooter.
Then there is no trigger weight rule.
Lever action has gone down the equipment race rabbit hole.
(The lightest vest is actually an unaltered skeet vest.)

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by No1_49er » Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:55 pm

As well as 3.1.3 (e), a more complete definition can be found in 3.12.

3.12 Clothing - Commercial type trap and skeet vests (sleeveless) and shotgun shooting shirts are permitted as well as clothing normally suitable for existing climatic temperatures. Shooting coats, unnecessarily heavy clothing, or anything on the person that would provide artificial support such as clothing having excess padding or stiffening material or which restricts or supports the body in the shooting position may not be worn. Any dispute regarding clothing will be submitted to the Jury for decision. (See Rule 20.10)
(a) Sleeveless leather, vinyl, heavy fabric or multiple layered vests that may be considered or construed to be unnecessarily heavy or to provide artificial support are permitted if they can be closed over a gauge made from 4 inch thin wall PVC pipe, not less than 30 inches in length, passed through the entire length of the vest, and opened or vented from the bottom edge to a point two inches above the crest of the hipbone.
(b) The gauge will be available to the competitors for self-checking throughout the tournament. Enforcement will take place at the firing line when garments to be worn underneath are in place.
(c) In Black Powder Cartridge Rifle competition only, period costumes are permitted.
(d) “P.A.S.T.”-type recoil shields are permitted in all rifle events. If such shields are used, no other shooting vests may be used.

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by 44 mag » Fri Sep 07, 2018 6:30 pm

Well said Jeanne.

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by dscak1 » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:07 pm

I use one of the Bob Allen vests modified by Chris and do not intend to change unless there is a rule change that prohibits it. However, while I realize rule 3.1.3 (e) is directed specifically at LA and rule 3.12 (a) is a more general rule directed at all rifle silhouette, the comments in both seem to mirror one another, using differing wording. One using "add stability", while the other says "unnecessarily heavy or to provide artificial support". As, to me, both say essentially the same thing, with 3.12(a) being more definitive, were I on a jury at a match, ruling on a protest, I would have to say, that, if it met the standard identified in 3.12(a), I would vote that it is a legal vest. At least with the current wording of the rules.

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by lijeboy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:16 pm

Directly from Mr. Farmer to me this morning in reply to my request for clarification:

I have not ruled one way or the other. This conversation has not come up with me contrary to my name being mentioned. I have seen nor heard of any petitions about this either. Just stick with the rule for now and if It comes up in the committee then we can deal with it then.

I believe that the only conversation that I had about any padding/jacket/support was the ‘protest’ that Jeanne had to deal with at the matches.



I hope this clears things up!



Aaron


So let's stop the rumor right here. Leather shooting vests are not legal for lever action at this time. The protest he is speaking of was at the BPCR championship.

And for the record, I didn't see anyone at lever action nationals wearing an illegal vest, nor was it reported to me. It is clearly a violation of the rules as they are currently written.
~Jeanne Ring

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by ChuckD » Sat Sep 08, 2018 12:35 pm

atomicbrh wrote:
Fri Sep 07, 2018 5:28 pm
There is an equipment race in lever action.
No kind of vest should have ever been allowed.
Only true factory sights should have been allowed.
No Williams. No peeps. No globes. No inserts. No Lyman. No sights that can be adjusted on the fly between animals.
I never saw any of that stuff on a Henry, Winchester or Marlin lever action until I went to a silhouette match.
The lightest vest is the cordura Creedmoor.
Second lightest is probably the Hardscrabble Bob Allen with the leather sewn over it.
Third lightest is the Sanchez because the leather is so thin.
Fourth lightest is the Hawkeye.
Heaviest is the all leather Hardscrabble because Chris uses leather that is thicker and heavier than the other four types of vests.
It is not the stiffness of the leather that gives an advantage in the vests but the weight of it pulling down on the shooter.
Then there is no trigger weight rule.
Lever action has gone down the equipment race rabbit hole.
(The lightest vest is actually an unaltered skeet vest.)
I get the vest, never worn them. But you take out the sights we are using, I bet you loose a majority of the shooters. Round and fiber optic front and peep sights on the rear make this work for older eyes. Look at the age categories from the National report. If I was only able to shoot buck horn an a front bead, I'm gone. Can't do with my hunting rigs either.

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by Sporty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 pm

I'm relatively new to LA so the "traditions" haven't been passed down to cause any bias. In addition, I'm very analytical. It appears to me that not wearing leather vests is a tradition in LA because I don't see a rule that states wearing a leather vest is illegal. I only see verbiage regarding artificial support and shooting coats where one can be objective. Restricted body movement is also easy to determine objectively. In my opinion, unnecessarily heavy clothing, as stated in 3.12, is subjective and should be left up to the jury to decide upon careful observation.

A leather vest would be illegal in LA when a rule explicitly states that. Otherwise, match directors and juries ruling against leather vests will be like legislating from the bench. No pun intended. However, once a jury decides then that's likely that.
-Charlie Meli

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by lijeboy » Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:52 pm

Further communication from Mr. Farmer to me regarding this issue.


Jeanne,

As of now I have not made any ruling on the wearing of vests for lever action as it pertains to the rule book.  I did not approve any changes contrary to this rule.  If there were any petitions that went around in the past then they did not make it to the committee and there were no changes approved from them or the rules committee on this.  Until it changes please continue with competing in this challenging sport with out a jacket and good luck on hitting those chickens!!

I think my best for the nationals was 3 out of 5….once!


Have a great weekend!


Aaron B. Farmer

Deputy Director of Competitions


~Jeanne Ring

"You only live once, but if you do it right, once is enough. " Mae West

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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by Sporty » Sat Sep 08, 2018 2:16 pm

Nice! The analytical in me wonders what a jacket is. We can all assume and continue with the tradition of banning leather vests.
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Re: Leather vests in Lever Action

Post by No1_49er » Sat Sep 08, 2018 5:36 pm

Sporty wrote:
Sat Sep 08, 2018 1:05 pm
I'm relatively new to LA so the "traditions" haven't been passed down to cause any bias. In addition, I'm very analytical. It appears to me that not wearing leather vests is a tradition in LA because I don't see a rule that states wearing a leather vest is illegal. I only see verbiage regarding artificial support and shooting coats where one can be objective. Restricted body movement is also easy to determine objectively. In my opinion, unnecessarily heavy clothing, as stated in 3.12, is subjective and should be left up to the jury to decide upon careful observation.

A leather vest would be illegal in LA when a rule explicitly states that. Otherwise, match directors and juries ruling against leather vests will be like legislating from the bench. No pun intended. However, once a jury decides then that's likely that.
OK, how does this grab you.
3.12 Clothing - Commercial type trap and skeet vests (sleeveless) and shotgun shooting shirts are permitted as well as clothing normally suitable for existing climatic temperatures.
3.18 Equipment - General - All devices or equipment which may facilitate
shooting and which are not mentioned in these Rules, or which are contrary to
the spirit of these Rules and Regulations are forbidden.

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