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Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Thu Jun 13, 2019 12:36 pm
by SqHunter
Are spirit level front sights legal for lever action silhouette? I am having a problem drifting to the left when I cant the rifle and thought these would help. I have searched the topic and can't find a conclusive answer.
Appreciate your wisdom.
http://stores.leeshavergunsmithing.com/ ... 00-height/
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:00 am
by GTS
Since no one has weighed in on this, I might as well give you my .02 worth. Marlin offered a windage adjustable front sight with a spirit level as a special order item. I feel certain that it's primary use was on long range and/or target rifles such as the Ballard. However, since it was available, I would think that it would be "legal" in silhouette competition. The photo below was taken from Brophy's book on Marlin rifles.
Marlin Wind Guage Sight-2.jpg
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 7:06 am
by SqHunter
Thank you, that is interesting.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:00 am
by Another Dang 9
I withheld posting on this as I was hoping someone with more knowledge on it would post. I have seen people use them on there CLA rifles. I do not believe there is any rule against using them. Nor have I heard them being brought up at any competitor's meeting. I may be wrong as I don't always make the meetings.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
by Jerry G
How much would a small cant change your POI at 200?
It is the indian, not the arrow.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 9:06 am
by jnyork
Jerry G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
It is the indian, not the arrow.
Wisdom there.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Tue Jun 18, 2019 11:01 am
by SqHunter
Jerry G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
How much would a small cant change your POI at 200?
It is the indian, not the arrow.
The degree of can't seems to depend on which rifle.I experimented with it a bit at my one and only CLA match, and it seemed to make a difference between hitting horn or rump. Interested in the sight as a training tool, having seen similar items on long range shooters rigs of several disciplines. Also, I am thinking of mailing the rifle to Shaver for another issue and might as well have him put his sights on it while it is there.
Interesting historical topic, thanks for the replies.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 am
by cedestech
Jerry G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
How much would a small cant change your POI at 200?
It is the indian, not the arrow.
About 6-8" unless you are holding the rifle at a 45* angle...
Seeing how it isn't specifically EXCLUDED in the rules and they have been around about 4 times longer then this game and none of the top shooter that I know of use one.... I'm willing to bet they are more of a hindrance then a help....
My $0.02, YMMV, IMHO...
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:41 am
by SqHunter
cedestech wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 am
Jerry G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
How much would a small cant change your POI at 200?
It is the indian, not the arrow.
About 6-8" unless you are holding the rifle at a 45* angle...
Seeing how it isn't specifically EXCLUDED in the rules and they have been around about 4 times longer then this game and none of the top shooter that I know of use one.... I'm willing to bet they are more of a hindrance then a help....
My $0.02, YMMV, IMHO...
Do you think they obscure the target? What else would make them a hindrance?
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:54 am
by BrentD
The level will not obscure the target. That wouldn't make any sense for any shooting game. It might be a bit of a distraction however. I use a level on my BPCR, as to 95% of all BPCR shooters. But when it come to shooting chickens offhand at 200 meters, I ignore it. My offhand "natural position" is to have the rifle canted a bit to the right. That puts the bubble all the way over on the left where it does nothing useful. I can fight for keeping the barrel level and the bubble centered, but doing so will have me fighting the gun to get in position and that does not usually end well. For close range, offhand shooting (i.e., all 3 lever gun disciplines), I find the level at best, useless, and at worst a distraction. YMMV, of course.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 6:20 am
by SqHunter
BrentD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:54 am
The level will not obscure the target. That wouldn't make any sense for any shooting game. It might be a bit of a distraction however. I use a level on my BPCR, as to 95% of all BPCR shooters. But when it come to shooting chickens offhand at 200 meters, I ignore it. My offhand "natural position" is to have the rifle canted a bit to the right. That puts the bubble all the way over on the left where it does nothing useful. I can fight for keeping the barrel level and the bubble centered, but doing so will have me fighting the gun to get in position and that does not usually end well. For close range, offhand shooting (i.e., all 3 lever gun disciplines), I find the level at best, useless, and at worst a distraction. YMMV, of course.
Thank you. That is an intersting point of view, to me the 200m Rams are long range.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 8:44 am
by cedestech
SqHunter wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:41 am
cedestech wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 5:00 am
Jerry G wrote: ↑Tue Jun 18, 2019 8:38 am
How much would a small cant change your POI at 200?
It is the indian, not the arrow.
About 6-8" unless you are holding the rifle at a 45* angle...
Seeing how it isn't specifically EXCLUDED in the rules and they have been around about 4 times longer then this game and none of the top shooter that I know of use one.... I'm willing to bet they are more of a hindrance then a help....
My $0.02, YMMV, IMHO...
Do you think they obscure the target?
What else would make them a hindrance?
What Brent said. If your hold is steady enough to be "on target" and then pay attention to the level.... you don't need it. If not then you'll be fighting yourself the whole time...
They have a place when you are trying to hit a smaller then half scale size ram at 200 yards, a couple inches IS a big deal. You are prone and the rifle is resting on sticks. Off hand it is too distracting. Buy it and try it. There isn't a match director outside of Nationals or a state match who is going to care. ;)
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:04 pm
by BrentD
there is only one way to settle this in your mind. Take your rifle and temporarily rig up some sort of level system for it or mount a scope with crosshairs that can be precisely canted relative to the target frame.
Then shoot a few groups with the rifle as near perfectly vertical as possible and then a few with the rifle canted. If see how much difference it makes.
but regardless, find out how you hold the rifle and the zero your rifle for that degree of cant. Not for zero cant.
200 m is short range in so far as the ballistics of your rifle work. I think you will find that minor amounts of cant just aren't really a big deal at 200 m.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm
by SqHunter
BrentD wrote: ↑Wed Jun 19, 2019 7:04 pm.
but regardless, find out how you hold the rifle and the zero your rifle for that degree of cant. Not for zero cant.
This portion of your statement is actually the main reason I am interested. I am not sure exactly why yet, but zeros for my new 3030 were greatly different between sighting in and the match. I don't know if it is mainly caused by pressure on the forearm, lighting on my partridge sight, or cant, but something caused me to shift high and right during the match. Once I got it figured out I scored well, but the first bank of Rams was a bust.
Re: Spirit level front sights for lever actions
Posted: Thu Jun 20, 2019 3:32 pm
by DJA
SqHunter wrote: ↑Thu Jun 20, 2019 12:28 pm
zeros for my new 3030 were greatly different between sighting in and the match.
Were you sighting in offhand or off the bench with a rest? The recoil is different, and that will effect POI. To get at least close with bench rest sighters, I use a technique shared by Mr. Steiger: put the rest right up under the action, not under the fore end. That did work better for me.