Anticipated Christmas Gift

[jsimmons]

I dropped several very large not-so-subtle hints on my wife that I'd really like to have a Henry Golden Boy, and if I know my wife like I think I know her, I'll be getting one for Christmas.

I'd like to shoot Cowboy Lever Action Silhouette with it, but I'm confused by one of the rules (I called the NRA and ordered a rifle silhouette rule book this morning).

"Rear sights may be open sights, receiver or tang sights manufactured for the rifle they are mounted on. Front sights must be a post or bead, may be hooded or if interchangeable may use post inserts only."

What does it mean when they say "manufactured for the rifle they are mounted on"? Does it mean the tang sight has to be made by the rifle manufacturer for the rifle in question? Can the front sight be fiber-optic?


Next, I haven't fond anything that mentions attachments on the rifle, such as a sling, cheek riser, loop wrap, etc. What are the rules regarding those items?

[lone ringer]

jsimmons, most of us use after market sights like Redfield, Lyman, Marbles, Williams, etc. as long as they were made to be used on those rifles we have.

Some people like in any other sport push the envelope and get away with using sights that were not designed to be used on their rifles but for the most part Cowboy is not the type of match where the equipment used makes all that much difference.

Not many things allowed to do to rifles in Cowboy Lever Action. Maybe a recoil pad, change sights and trigger job, thats about it nothing else. I have seen loop wraps on some rifles but can't see how that may help someones score.

[jnyork]

I recently heard of a State Championship match in which some of the competitors were using Redfield International and Anschutz rear sights on their lever guns. This to me is a direct violation of both the letter and intent of the rule and I dont know why it was not protested.

I was also told that the rules now allow the use of fiberoptic front sights, just like ol' John Wayne, Buffalo Bill, Tom Horn and Sitting Bull.

[lone ringer]

jnyork, those particular kind of sights that you mentioned are not allowed at most places where I have shot including the Nationals.

The ones where people are pushing the envelope are the vernier sights used in the Black Powder Cartridge rifles and also sights like the Redfield Mod 75 because some shooters claim that there are mounts designed for those kinds of sights for their use in some of the more popular lever action rifles.

[jsimmons]

I recently heard of a State Championship match in which some of the competitors were using Redfield International and Anschutz rear sights on their lever guns. This to me is a direct violation of both the letter and intent of the rule and I dont know why it was not protested.

I was also told that the rules now allow the use of fiberoptic front sights, just like ol' John Wayne, Buffalo Bill, Tom Horn and Sitting Bull.

John Wayne wasn't a cowboy. He was an actor.

Maybe the sights weren't protested because the wording of the rule is too broad and open to interpretation. Maybe the rule should be stated like so:

"Sights must be mounted on the rifle. The use of magnifying devices is prohibited."

Hmmm, that's pretty definitive - bring a rifle with open sights and no scope mounted.

I think it's kind of silly to argue against a particular kind of sight. Open sights are still hard to shoot. Everyone has a preference that fits their sighting style, and if they were to prohibit a certain kind of sight, it would severely reduce the number of competitors. I imagine there's pretty few cowboy action silhouette shooters as it is, so there's no benefit in reducing that number due to arbitrary sight rules.

If I do indeed get this rifle, I'm probably going to get the Marbles tang sight, but the front sight is a different matter. I'm not sure what kind to get. At the moment, I'm leaning towards a globe sight. When everything is said and done, I want to be able to be able to sight-in at everything from 25-125 yards.

[lone ringer]

Nobody is using scopes in Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette, this sport is shot with iron sights only.

We had 153 SB, 103 HP and 163 Cowboy Lever Action shooters at their respective 2007 Sil Nats. This was only the fourth Nationals for Cowboy and the number of matches has been increasing every year since it got started about nine years ago, just look at the Shooting Sports USA magazine and you will see what I am talking about. In my opinion the sport is here to stay and prosper but only as long as we leave and enforce the rules the way they are written.

[Jason]

Well no sights are going to be as good for sighting as a good scope, but there are great differences in different kinds of sights. For instance, the even the Marbles tang sights and Williams receiver sights are nowhere in the league of the full-on Anschutz and Redfield competition sights, even with the "no glass" or "no magnification" rules strictly enforced. I don't expect that anyone that shoots at our matches would show up with a blatant rule violation like that, but if I were helping run the match I'd probably let them shoot a "practice" match so they wouldn't have to go home without shooting, but would relate it clearly before the match that their score wouldn't be counted with the others.

I wouldn't be willing to put my intitials by a score in their scorebook while using those sights on a cowboy rifle for sure. That's essentially saying that you verify that the score was a legitimate score shot within the NRA silhouette rules. If that didn't happen, putting that score in a scorebook is a disservice to other shooters. What if they shot grand slam legs using that setup? Then I'd have to sign those forms, too, saying that the grand slam legs were shot within the rules, which they weren't. There aren't a lot of people with grand slams in cowboy rifle, and I'd hate to know I had a hand in helping someone achieve one while breaking the rules.

[jnyork]

I'm with you, lone ringer. One of things that appeals to most Lever Action silhouette shooters is the inability of competitors to buy their way into the winner's circle by outspending the other shooters on fancy equipment. The surest way to ruin a gunsport is to allow it to deteriorate into an equipment race. For instance, IHMSA was at one time a very active organization with thousands of dedicated shooters. It isnt that way any more and the reason is they let it get too involved with equipment categories and expensive guns and accessories. NRA rifle silhouette started out as a simple game for guys who owned a hunting rifle and look at it now. If we allow people to tinker with the rules regarding equipment, sights, etc, you can depend on the sport to slowly deteriorate to where only a few well-heeled elitists remain on the firing line.

[TURKEYSFEARME]

I don't think we should allow high end target sights like anschutz or redfield in lever action silhouette. The fact is the targets we shoot are pretty big and if you can't hit them with factory buckhorn type sights anschutz sights probably won't help you. I think that since we are shooting rifles designed in the 1890s our sights should be from the same time period. I use lyman or marble tang sights on all my lever guns and they work just fine if I miss it was probably because of my form or follow through not the sights. When I started shooting high power and smallbore about ten years ago everybody was shooting a factory gun in the hunter class but since they allowed totaly custom hunter rifles I have seen a decline in match attendance.most of the top shooters of ten years ago are still on top but shoot more expensive rifles. there arent many newcomers and fewer of them come around after one or two matches let's not make the same mistake with lever action silhouette

[jsimmons]

I'm not advocating the use of custom guns. I'm just saying the rules as stated are ambiguous. What the hell does "manufactured for the rifle they're mounted on" mean?

Does it mean that you can't use a site that's not made by the rifle's manufacturer? If the site fits the rifles receiver or tang, is it okay to use, even if it's not made specifically for that rifle? Does this mean a Marbles sight mounted on a Henry H001T isn't legal because I had to drill/tap a hole in order to get it mounted?

I don't have my copy of the rule book yet, but I have never seen a rule that said you couldn't spend $1000 on your sites if that's what blows up your skirt.

If I'm competing with a Henry and a Marbles tang site against a guy with a Marlin 39a with an Anshutz sight, who gives a rat's patootie? I bought what I could afford, and so did he. If an Anshutz site truly gives him an advantage (and you're gonna have to work long and hard to prove that it does), then maybe one day I'll get one.

In the end, I don't personally care what the rules say as long as they're clearly stated and consistently enforced so that I'm not reprimanded or embarrassed when I show up at the match with a rifle that is somehow outside the specs (or even worse, significantly and unintentionally less equipped than the competition), simply because I interpreted the rules incorrectly or differently than they were intended to be. Like I tell my wife, I'm not a freakin' mind reader.

And yes, I know I'm being pedantic, but when you're talking about a set of rules, EVERYBODY should be pedantic.

[TURKEYSFEARME]

Yeah the rules are pretty vague. The way I see it your sights must be listed in the catalog to fit your specific rifle but don't have to be made by the rifle manufacturer. you make a good point though I had to drill and tap my 39a to make the sights fit I guess you could say I altered the gun to accept the sights.

[lone ringer]

We are operating under rules that were put together some twenty years back by a group of shooters from the New Mexico area and they were adopted by the NRA when they decided to sanction the Cowboy Leaver Action Rifle Silhouette matches. Granted they are a bit ambiguous but for the most part they have worked.

"Manufactured for the rifle they're mounted on" to me it means if I want after market sights my options are Williams, Lyman, Marbles and maybe some old Redfield. I can buy them from several different stores or even directly from the manufacturer. If one of my rifles is not drilled and tapped for them but they are made for that particular model, I do not have a problem with drilling and taping to mount. Most of the people I know that shoot cowboy interpret the rule the same way.

A few individuals are taking Anschutz and Redfield International and will make adapters to fit those sights to their rifles. I do not think that follows the rule or the spirit of the game.

Then there are a few other shooters that buy very expensive vernier sights that were designed to be used in Black Powder Cartridge rifles and adapt those to their cowboy rifles. I do not think the current rules should include those types of sights either because they were not manufactured specifically to be used on the rifles we are using in Cowboy.

Fiber optics front sights are allowed but some individuals are getting carried away and are making them so that the fiber optics wrap around the outside of the sight several times or even run it along the barrel so that they gather more light. I do not think that those sights mentioned should be allowed to be used in our sport because for one thing they are not being manufactured by a company like Marbles and their fire sights. But they are actually being made by those individuals, they are not being offered for sale to everybody and most of them are one of a kind.

It is very hard to come up with rules that every body understands and interprets the same way and the more specific the rules get the easier they are to circumvent for the lawyer type individuals.

They used to have a rule in HP and SB Hunting silhouette rifle that called for cataloged factory rifles which meant no custom rifles. Well some guys figured that if the maker had a catalog no matter how small their company was then the rifles had to be legal and that how the rules got changed to accept those highly modified rifles we use now a days.

If you can think of a better way to write the rules I suggest you contact the NRA Silhouette Committee and share your views with them. I for the most part can live with the rules the way they are written but would like for them to enforce them better and not look the other way when somebody breaks them.

[GTKF]

Lone ringer I agree 100% with what you said.

To me HP hunter class is a joke, and does not do what it was designed to do - allowing new shooters an opportunity to try the sport and be competitive, without a major financial committment

Ken

[Bob259]

First let me agree 100% with Lone ringer and I'll try not to stray to far from the topic. However, this is back to the same old argument and perception and it's getting old... equipment does NOT make the shooter or their score. At best it MAY count for one or two more hits.

You give any of the top shooters a box stock rifle and they will still beat us. It's PRACTICE, PRACTICE, PRACTICE... (and young eyes and steadyness helps too ) You give anyone of those same shooters one of my built rifles and they will still beat me so bad it isn't funny. This sport is 95% mental and 5% equipment and if you are thinking it's the other way around, or telling that to new shooters you are defeated before you get to the line. Go out and have fun, I know many shooters that shoot marginal, at best, old knocked around equipment and can beat any of the custom rifles, it has nothing to do with the rifle... it's the nut holding it and pulling the trigger. If those two come together at the right time it doesn't matter what they are shooting.

Now back to the SB Cowboy lever action, I would like to see them spell out that no Match sights (Anschutz etc.) or the fire sights are allowed at all and I'd also like to see them allow single shot period rifles.

[TURKEYSFEARME]

I would also like to see a period single shot class. I think a good way to eliminate high end match sights on lever guns is to only allow period sights. I agree that match sights don't offer much of an advantage over period sights but the expensive looking gear intimidates new shooters.