Redfield 75

[L. Rivard]

The way I read the new rule language on sights the Redfield 75 seem to be legal now. Any opinions as to if this is correct, or just wishful thinking on my part? Also, does anyone know of a source for bases for the 75? Would a shop made base be legal? Along the same lines, I had a long wait getting a Marbles for my Marlin 1894 a couple of years back, so I made a tang sight in the shop. I know it was not legal at that time, but the local guys let me use it until the Marbles came in. I would go back to it in a heartbeat if it would now be legal. Any opinions?

[JohnHenry]

L. Rivard

Refer to my posts under "Silhouette Lever Gun Rule Changes" about a month ago.

I didn't understand the new wording regards rear sights, so I called Greg Connor. He said the Model 75 Redfield and any other sight that can be attached to the receiver are legal except for Olympic and International style target sights. He said he didn't consider the Model 75 to be in that category.

Also, I gave the name of Outback Gun Parts as a supplier for the adapting base to attach a 75 sight to a Marlin or Winchester rifle that is drilled and tapped for a receiver sight.

Hope this helps.

Jim

[L. Rivard]

Best news I've had all day . Thanks much Johnhenry.

[tenx9]

You so called Cowboy Period lever gun shooters make me laugh. I've been shooting silohuette a long time, so I not spewing just to start a commotion. Just tell the rules guys that you want to mount whatever iron sights you want on the guns and get over it. I going to make a prediction. Within 5 years you will all be mounting Anshutz front and rear sights, with spirit levels, and adjustable iris' with color and magnification inserts. LOL!! Never saw a Cowboy shoot that, LOL. Probably a couple years after that you'll al have Hart or Kreiger bbls on them. Of course, in the stock taper and weight. The real story is, we're all getting older, and can't see anymore. Thats why the targets are so big and the always rules changes. Would you rather shoot 30 targets in Cowboy or struggle hitting 20 in regular silohuette. Thats the real reason for Cowboy popularity. Have fun kiddies.....

[jnyork]

You so called Cowboy Period lever gun shooters make me laugh. I've been shooting silohuette a long time, so I not spewing just to start a commotion. Just tell the rules guys that you want to mount whatever iron sights you want on the guns and get over it. I going to make a prediction. Within 5 years you will all be mounting Anshutz front and rear sights, with spirit levels, and adjustable iris' with color and magnification inserts. LOL!! Never saw a Cowboy shoot that, LOL. Probably a couple years after that you'll al have Hart or Kreiger bbls on them. Of course, in the stock taper and weight. The real story is, we're all getting older, and can't see anymore. Thats why the targets are so big and the always rules changes. Would you rather shoot 30 targets in Cowboy or struggle hitting 20 in regular silohuette. Thats the real reason for Cowboy popularity. Have fun kiddies.....

My thoughts exactly, well said.

[L. Rivard]

Tenx9, you raise some interesting issues. The "Equipment Race" question has been raised in every type of shooting sport I have ever been involved in. The centerfire and rimfire benchrest venues are at one end of the spectrum, embracing change as an essential part of the sport. Blackpowder and Lever Action Silhouette are the most restrictive, with tight equipment parameters. I would be surprised if Lever action silhouette ever abandons an essentially stock tube magazine lever gun with iron sights. As to the configuration of those sights, the post or bead front sight requirement will last simply because it is reasonable. Rules requiring the use of sight which cannot be relied on to adjust repeatably will inevitably change, ( as they are changing now) because they are not reasonable. Personally, I would have no problem with ANY type of aperature rear sight, they are all , when it is said and done, just a hole to be looked through. Also, for what it's worth, (probably not much), I think Lever Action Silhouette is inherently a tougher sport than Smallbore Silhouette. Why? Sight alignment with iron sights. The need to maintain front to rear sight alignment while also positioning the front sight on the target is exponentially harder than holding the crosshairs of a scope in position. Just my two cents.

[tenx9]

Thats one point we absolutely disagree on. Just take a look at the scores. I know guys who are barely shooting AA is reg silohuette and are regularly shooting AAA and Master scores in Cowboy. I know already guys are adjusting triggers down to a 1lb or so. I know, any safe trigger. The targets are so big that accuracy of the firearm is not an issue at any distance. Drop the target size 25% and the scores will drop as well. It's a fun discipline, but I don't put much credence on it. Guys will always shoot what they win at and do well in. My suggestion, drop target size 25% and allow for globe front apertures as there is no blade front that doesn't cover the whole animal at almost every distance. Scores should fall in line. I shoot this occasionally using someone elses rifle. Like I said before, have fun but dont take yourself too seriously.

[L. Rivard]

Well, I can't argue that point about the scores being lower in the scope sports. Strictly, I believe a function of the target size. I will say that my experience is that the skillful, serious shooter will come out on top of either sport. I shoot both sports, neither very well, and I sure think irons are harder to shoot accurately than scopes.

[boats]

Not much difference in scores iron or scope in disciplines that allow both.

Schuetzen is a good example many matches run "Iron sight" and " Any Sight" with agg score both for overall winners with scores about the same iron sight to scope. Scope about as high scoring is allowing for good eyesight that is. Somebody does not see well scope lets them compete. Levers are almost as accurate as bolt guns or single shots too. Our club non regulation gong matches lever actions don't give up much to heavy single shot set trigger tang rear globe front rifles.

Reason CLA scores are high is the targets are larger, Iron sights and the rifles inherent accuracy are more than good enough to clean the animals. No need to hot rod a rifle to hit targets that large, but am sure there will be pressure to steadily "improve" stock CLA rifles. Likely to go the route of the Hunter Class Bolt gun to the detrement of the sport

Boats

[lone ringer]

There has been over 10 years since the NRA started sanctioning the Cowboy Lever Action Rifle Silhouette matches and so far we have not seen the "improvements" that you guys suggest and do not think the Silhouette Committee will allow the use of International or Olympic type sights any time soon since we had such a hard time convincing them that the Redfield mod 75 was not one of those. I will also predict that there will be not be any custom barrels allowed either. It all starts at the local level and in my neck of the woods I do not see any rifles that would be considered "custom" and not allowed at Nats.

[L. Rivard]

Boats, I think we will have to settle for a respectful disagreement as to the respective level of difficulty in use, scopes to irons. I do promise to keep an open mind however, and the very first time anyone wins the Super Shoot with irons I will adopt your position.

[tenx9]

Levers are almost as accurate as a bolt gun? Really? Golly, what type of lever do you shoot? Either that, or how bad is your bolt gun? I'm not a big "Schetzen? " guy, but last time I saw them they had highly accurate micrometer sights and generally only shoot them at one distance. Thats a pretty sily agrument. Granted I overstated my agrument as far as escalating equipment but we are slowly headed in that direction. No one in my area shoot "illegal" levers either, as long as rules continue to evolve who's to say what is practical or period and what is not. Rules are made to be broken, as long as the Rules Commitee approves them, then you're in. Then, all is right in the universe. Frankly, I believe that due to the size of the targets it wouldnt matter if you had a custom bbl or not. Levers come with bbls from 30" down to 16" and having a 16" Hart bbl will absolutely make no difference at all. My advice to you is, if your lever shoots as well as your bolt gum? Have the bolt gun fixed because Houston WE had a problem.

[boats]

Let me explain another way,

Very good Small bore Silhouette rifle will shoot 1 moa on Smalbore Rams that are just under 3 MOA body height. Very good Small bore Cowboy Lever Rife will shoot 3 moa on the CLA Ram thats about 12 MOA body height.

Take away the rifles mechanical and sighting error The CLA shooter has 9 moa for his wobble with while the Shooter using a Scope sighted Small bore rifle has 2 moa to work with. Thats why the Cowboy lever scores are higher than Scoped modern Silhouette rifles scores.

Far as Single shots and Levers our club runs two Gong matches a month one CF one Rim fire Rams only hung from Chains. I am the SB Match director and keep the stats. Single shots always win however average out the top scores from 30 plus shooters each match. Top Single shot rifle shooters scores are about 35/40 Top shooters Lever Action scores are about 32/40 10 % disadvantage to the Lever gun. High gun single shot in 2011 was 38 top lever was 35. Best shooters often switch off and from the stats we see the same 10 % difference. I account it to trigger and rifles weight.

Lever actions are not as accurate as bolt guns or single shots. NRA CLA target is so big the rifles mechanical disadvantage is minimal.

My rifles ? Smallbore Hunter class gun is about a 1 1/2 inch Gun at 100 meters. Marlin 39a 100 Meters is about a 3 1/2 inch gun. .22 12 lb single shot with it's vernier tang and globe front at 100 meters is a 2 inch gun put it's 20x scope on it will go 1 inch

Make sense ?


Boats

[tenx9]

LOL, I think we just agreed. First off, Cowboy is easier than regular silohuette, therefore the higher scores. There's no need to put more precise sights on the rifles. Iron sights doesn't make the game harder. In fact, even putting a 9x max( hunting you know) scope on there, probably wouldn't make a big difference either. All kidding aside, I really think the NRA needs to reduce the size of the targets. In big bore, I see guys ringing Rams all the time with a 30-30 at 200. Accuracy certainly isn't the issue. THE ANIMALS are toooooooo damn big to make the sport credible. But, it sure is fun knocking down over 30 animals. Thats the competitor in me talking.

[boats]

Every match is different and like has been said good shooters rise to the top.

One thing the easier Cowboy targets teach is paying attention to evey single shot. Scores are so high you can't throw away any targets. Most silhouette shooters & scoped rifles more misses accounted to "off" shots than any other reason. Jerked triggers or just poor decisions on pulling or holding than the wobble area or rifles mechanical accuracy. Shoot easy targets were you have to hit them all teaches something different than regular smallbore silhouette were misses are more routine.

Boats