How many air rifles???

General BS, Match Results, Upcoming Events and all around Gossip...

How would you feel if air rifle silhouette went to one rifle?

I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
10
20%
I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD NOT likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
12
24%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
8
16%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO NOT believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
20
40%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and would likely QUIT if the rules moved to one rifle.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 50

glen ring
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by glen ring »

I have to agree with Jason this time. I LOVE shooting anything. I get giggly shooting our Beeman R7 with a 6 power Leupold. Jeanne and I shoot it almost every day , we have 40 air rifle targets we shoot from the porch but there are no matches close to us. I think air rifle silhouette is so much more fun than all the other silhouette sports , but it's hard to justify a very nice silhouette air rifle that I shoot once a year.

We would certainly buy one very nice open or target air rifle IF there were matches to go to.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

Why are the 2017 Air Rifle National matches not listed on the back of the 2017 Silhouette Scorebooks?
Why are the 2017 Air Rifle National matches not listed in the USA Shooting sports coming events section as other non-silhouette National matches are prominently listed?
Why is there no mention of these National matches in a article in the NRA publications(print and online) promoting how great these national matches are before they happen?
Why is there no after action match article with the results and human interest stories like the other national matches?
Why is there no announcement of these national matches in the other airgun forums?
Why does BB Pelletier as in Pyramid Air not feel the need to promote these National matches in his blogs or on the Pyramid Air website in some fashion as he does many other events?
The way to prevent participation is to make sure very few people know about the National match.
Is it intentional to not publicize and promote these Air Rifle Silhouette matches?
What comes first the chicken or the egg?
Promotion and advertising always come before increased participation.
Back in the paper magazine days there were many articles in the NRA publications about Rifle Silhouette with pictures of the competitors and equipment. That time seemed to coincide with the height of participation in our area.
I wonder why?
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acorneau
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by acorneau »

Dustin, I know you're just the messenger here so I apologize if my reply was a little too directed at you. Nothing personal, I promise.
:ymhug:
dustinflint wrote:... There are two things that the NRA wants to see to continue national championships: lots of people and people from lots of different places. Every year I'm asked two questions: (1) what can be done to get more participation; and (2) what can be done to get people from different places to the nationals?

I think it's a simple equation: more shooters overall = more people at nationals.

So what can be done to increase participation in air rifle silhouette (ARS)? For me that questions needs to be asked in two ways... "What can we do to increase participation?" -and- "What can the NRA do to increase participation?"

I would hazard a guess that most people who get into ARS do so because they already shoot some other form of silhouette. Everyone that shoots ARS at our club also shoots smallbore and some also shoot CLA. (We don't have high-power silhouette at our club but I would guess if we did it would follow suit.) Drawing from our own collective clubs' silhouette shooters is probably the best pool to draw from for more ARS participants.

I think what Jason said about just having ARS club matches available in your area will help to make more non-ARS shooters into ARS shooters as well.

Has anyone gotten any positive response from other air rifle shooters like the Field Target crowd or the 10m USAS/ISSF people? One of our SB/AR guys runs our club's 3-P program but I have yet to see anyone of those folks show up to one of our ARS matches.


On the flip side, the NRA should be looking at what they can do to help clubs make these matches available to clubs across the country such as: using their industry connections to provide subsidized/discounted resettable targets, helping to procure club rifles to borrow, getting distributors to provide discounted pellets to clubs, maybe even having an ARS ambassador travel the country hosting introductory ARS matches for clubs, etc.

In the end I think just getting more people to participate in ARS across the country will yield the greatest increase of people at ARS nationals, more than any other rule/equipment changes.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Ken Green »

Glenn: Since you have a full set of air rifle silhouette targets. Then just start your own matches. Then you could buy a nice open class or target class air rifle. Then you could come on down to Baton Rouge and shoot in the Air Rifle National matches.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by glen ring »

Ken

We run the CLA matches at our club ( there's one this weekend ) and the club is VERY good to us. Our Silhouette range is very nice, but we can't have a ARS match there because of the terrain. The Black Powder target range is fantastic, a VERY level 100yardsx100 yards and has several firing points. It's being redone with a new cover and modern BATHROOMS. That's the place where we MAY have ARS matches.

The targets would probably be donated for a bigger match with several shooters, but we question the turnout. That would mean we give up TWO weekends a month to put on matches and would limit our shooting at other ranges.
Everyone likes shooting in a match, but few people like putting them on. We've had no volunteers so far.

Jeanne shoots everything I do. When we started CLA that meant 6 total rifles, when she wanted to try small-bore, that meant two rifles, now she is considering high-power so that means another rifle.

I'm 6"1 and have monkey arms, Jeanne is 5'5 and her ancestors are more evolved, so that means she gets her own rifles that fit her.
If ARS went to one rifle then that would only mean two rifles for us to purchase in lieu of 6...SIX Air Rifles. Two is a much easier sell to my finance director than 6. We are both retired public servants and are pretty far from rich , so one rifle that we could shoot in a National match makes sense .

Having said all that, HIGHPOWER and Small-bore silhouette are usually shot with only one rifle and their numbers are down so there's got to be more to the equation than just limiting to one rifle.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

Lots of good points here - and I'll try to address them.

First, we do need more ARS club matches, and the how-to on that question is the natural next step. For the purposes of this poll, I asked everyone to assume there is an ARS match close to them.

Running an ARS club match is super simple. All you need is 45 yards and some targets. We used to run a weekly club match at night from the back porch of a house in a subdivision. If there are folks interested in shooting, setting up a club match is cake.

As for ARS championship matches, the only ones in the country are in Louisiana and Texas, and there are only 4 - Nationals, Chicken Coop Shoot, Texas state and Winnsboro regional - Winnsboro in no more so this year there are only 3. I think the answer to more ARS championship matches is to tack them on to existing state and regional SB and HP matches like was done at Winnsboro. After this year, we plan to have an ARS state championship in conjunction with the Louisiana SB state championship.
Jason wrote:For personal preferences, I have no interest in owning a springer for a competition.
I agree. If I didn't have to have a spring gun to shoot Sporter, I wouldn't own one or ever shoot one. They are a complete pain and having to buy one and maintain it is a big drawback of ARS in my opinion.
Jason wrote:For attendance at a national championship, I also think having two rifle classes would be better. Two rifles can be carried in the same case just like with smallbore and highpower rifles, and ammo for them definitely can be carried easily. Flying with three rifles starts to get very expensive, though. I would also be more likely to travel to a big match where I could shoot more matches. A familiar and attractive weekend format for me would be to have a target rifle match each morning and an open rifle match each afternoon (when there is likely to be more wind), with rifle classification awards and aggregate awards given at the end of the fourth match. It would also be fine with me, and might fit into a few more people's schedules, if there were two matches for target rifle on Saturday and two matches for open rifle on Sunday, with rifle classification awards given after that rifle's matches were done and aggregates given after the second day's matches were done.
The nationals currently solves this problem by having the complete national championship for Sporter on Friday, Open on Saturday and Target on Sunday (60 shot matches every morning and afternoon for 120-shot national match course in every rifle). There is no grand aggregate so if anyone wants to travel to just shoot one or two rifles, that is available. The national championship will always provide a championship for each air rifles that is contemplated by the rules.
SqHunter wrote:I find it interesting that both Cowboy and Air Rifle require more equipement and more money than smallbore.... and smallbore is supposed to be the "race" class that so many people throw off on.
I agree. The "equipment race" in silhouette is an illusion. When you have to stand and shoot unsupported at little targets, you cant buy your way to doing it well.
shooterer wrote:I would vote for 2 classes:
Factory - Stock rifle, fixed stock with no OUTSIDE modifications and any sights, 13 lbs weight. Rifle specs would follow small-bore rifle rules for comb, toe, sight height etc.

Open - anything goes with iron sights only (so I can use my 10m rifle)
I think that fewer restrictions are always better. Weight limits and stock restrictions only make it harder for shooters to affordably get rifles and it makes basically no difference in score. I'd say any air rifle that doesn't damage targets is legal. Maybe require that the scope be in line with the bore and no more than two inches high if we want to avoid chin guns.

We've thought about doing an iron sight airgun match for 10m guns with the targets in closer (at club matches) but there are already way too many ARS rifles.
glen ring wrote: We would certainly buy one very nice open or target air rifle IF there were matches to go to.
This is what we are wondering. Assuming club matches are available, would folks get into ARS if only one rifle was needed to fully compete at any championship match?? Thanks for the comment.
atomicbrh wrote:Why are the 2017 Air Rifle National matches not listed on the back of the 2017 Silhouette Scorebooks?
Don't know. Some years they include it and some years they don't.
atomicbrh wrote:Why are the 2017 Air Rifle National matches not listed in the USA Shooting sports coming events section as other non-silhouette National matches are prominently listed?
Good question. I don't know.
atomicbrh wrote:Why is there no mention of these National matches in a article in the NRA publications(print and online) promoting how great these national matches are before they happen?
Because the NRA doesn't promote silhouette and doesn't plan to promote silhouette.
atomicbrh wrote:Why is there no after action match article with the results and human interest stories like the other national matches?
There are. This is last year's https://www.ssusa.org/articles/2016/6/2 ... p-results/
atomicbrh wrote:Why does BB Pelletier as in Pyramid Air not feel the need to promote these National matches in his blogs or on the Pyramid Air website in some fashion as he does many other events?
We have tried to get Pyramid Air to sponsor the matches. They say that an event that only draws 40-50 people is not big enough. I hope that will change in the future. We will stay on them and keep asking. I think that the only way to make ARS big is to have the airgun industry take it over.
acorneau wrote:So what can be done to increase participation in air rifle silhouette (ARS)? For me that questions needs to be asked in two ways... "What can we do to increase participation?" -and- "What can the NRA do to increase participation?"
We are looking at what we can do. The NRA will do nothing except possibly support a rule change. We have been told countless times that it's not the NRA's job to promote silhouette.
acorneau wrote:Has anyone gotten any positive response from other air rifle shooters like the Field Target crowd or the 10m USAS/ISSF people? One of our SB/AR guys runs our club's 3-P program but I have yet to see anyone of those folks show up to one of our ARS matches.
We get a few field target guys out to shoot sometimes. I even invented a "field target silhouette" game to be shot along side us at our club matches where the chickens are forced-position kneeling, the pigs are forced-position standing, and the turkeys and rams are freestyle. Haven't had a FT shooter show up yet...
acorneau wrote:On the flip side, the NRA should be looking at what they can do to help clubs make these matches available to clubs across the country such as: using their industry connections to provide subsidized/discounted resettable targets, helping to procure club rifles to borrow, getting distributors to provide discounted pellets to clubs, maybe even having an ARS ambassador travel the country hosting introductory ARS matches for clubs, etc.
The NRA says this is our job as the silhouette community.
acorneau wrote:In the end I think just getting more people to participate in ARS across the country will yield the greatest increase of people at ARS nationals, more than any other rule/equipment changes.
You're right that we need more people. The question is whether the rules and equipment are a hindering factor to getting those people.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

Woody wrote a nice article on that 2016 match. What about another approach? What about holding the ARS Nationals at the Malvern, AR. airgun show in April? That show is attracting a lot of industry attention now. They already have an area set up to shoot airguns to entice people to purchase them. Here is the link.

https://www.facebook.com/ArkansasAirgunShow/
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Re: How many air rifles???

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atomicbrh wrote:Woody wrote a nice article on that 2016 match. What about another approach? What about holding the ARS Nationals at the Malvern, AR. airgun show in April? That show is attracting a lot of industry attention now. They already have an area set up to shoot airguns to entice people to purchase them. Here is the link.

https://www.facebook.com/ArkansasAirgunShow/
I think an ARS regional match at that show would be great. I would certainly attend. As for the nationals being there, we have a hard enough time getting folks to the match in Baton Rouge, which is right in the middle of the bulk of the ARS shooters in the country. Moving it further away would probably kill attendance. Of course, the NRA can do whatever it wants with the national championship.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by acorneau »

dustinflint wrote:
atomicbrh wrote:What about holding the ARS Nationals at the Malvern, AR. airgun show in April?
I think an ARS regional match at that show would be great.

The Texas Air Gun Show is at the Arlington Sportsman Club in Mansfield (south D/FW) August 26th. Could we set up some kind of exhibition match up there?
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

This poll has been up for 48 hours now. Only 25 people have voted in the poll. The low number of people voting in the poll is discouraging. Keep in mind that many of the competitors who own and shoot all three air rifles do not participate in steel chickens and some do not use the internet at all.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by GSL »

HI Dustin ,

I believe I know that seemingly a switch to 1 rifle ( open ) would simplify the # of guns needed to travel to a championship ...
Bravo Dustin ... however the choice for that PROPER open rifle would be VERY expensive and daunting in selection .
I personally HAVE all 3 types ... however ; there ARE NO matches to go to !
WE know that a TX200 for sporter IS the way to go ... A target rifle is easy ... an OPEN rifle that is supercharged is ,
I believe a difficult choice . However , having said all that - IF a move to just 1 rifle would HELP ... I AM IN !

I love shooting AIR RIFLE ...
GSL
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by BrentD »

I can't see how one gun is a solution to anything. If you can only travel or afford one gun, well, you can do that now. What is the logic of those that voted for "I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle." ???

Why do you already NOT shoot airgun with just one gun? Is there a rule against one gun?
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

Like many other folks, I shoot a Steyr LG100 modified by Allen Zasadny in the Open Division and my son shoots an Anschutz 2025 also modified by Allen Zasadny. I can tell you that a true Open rifle is like the top fuel dragster in NHRA drag racing. Compared to a Target rifle it is a huge air consumer. For that reason I do not shoot or practice with the Open rifle very much. It takes me 1/2 a day to drive to the closest scuba shop and get my tanks filled. 4500 psi fills are not available in my area so I have to stick with conventional scuba tanks. I practice mainly with my Target rifle because I can get as many as 300 shots off a good fill. If 4500 psi fills ever became available in my area, I would immediately go to a carbon fiber tank. Keep this in mind when you vote in the poll.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

BrentD wrote:I can't see how one gun is a solution to anything. If you can only travel or afford one gun, well, you can do that now. What is the logic of those that voted for "I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle." ???

Why do you already NOT shoot airgun with just one gun? Is there a rule against one gun?
Here is the difference: Lets take the Texas Air Rifle Silhouette state championship as an example: This is a 2-day match in Houston consisting of a 60-shot Target rifle match Saturday morning, a 60-shot Open rifle match Saturday afternoon and a 60-shot Sporter rifle match Sunday morning. Let's say I live in Jackson, MS, or New Orleans, LA or El Paso, TX and I have one rifle that meets the rules for open gun only. What are the chances that I'm going to choose to drive all the way to Houston to shoot one 60-shot match on Saturday afternoon then go back home?

Compare that same match if there is only one rifle. The two-day match will then have two days of shooting with just one rifle - so now I get to bring my one rifle to Houston and shoot all weekend, just like everybody else. MUCH more likely to make the trip.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by SqHunter »

BrentD wrote:I can't see how one gun is a solution to anything. If you can only travel or afford one gun, well, you can do that now. What is the logic of those that voted for "I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle." ???

Why do you already NOT shoot airgun with just one gun? Is there a rule against one gun?
I look at it like Cowboy. To be eligible for the agg awards you have to shoot all three rifles (smallbore, pc, and whatever they call the long range rifles now). I only have access to smallbore ranges and they are few and far apart. I have nowhere to practice or compete with a long range rifle, even if I wanted to pay for the ammo. Therfore there is no point in my ever attending the Eastern games or the Nationals.

If air rifle awards are calculated the same way, there is no point in going to any higher level air rifle match either because I will never be able to afford an Open class rifle. I might be able to trade up from my old RWS 48 to a pretty Air Arms squirrel rifle, but I will never be able to afford a top of the line 10 meter rifle in this lifetime.
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