How many air rifles???

General BS, Match Results, Upcoming Events and all around Gossip...

How would you feel if air rifle silhouette went to one rifle?

I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
10
20%
I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD NOT likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
12
24%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
8
16%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO NOT believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
20
40%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and would likely QUIT if the rules moved to one rifle.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 50

GSL
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by GSL »

HI ALL ;
HI Dustin ;
I have a very doable solution ;
A handicap system for ANY air rifle ... ALLOW any shooter to shoot whatever ! THEN see what category it basically fits into .
HANDICAP according to accuracy / energy . For example - A supercharged OPEN rifle pushing a heavy pellet at maybe 950 fps
that cuts a .50 inch group at 50 yds is Killer next to a GAMO air rifle ! A FEINWERKBAU 300 at 650 fps with a light pellet is not
as accurate with any sort of wind condition ... neither is ANY 10 meter scuba rifle ... Whereas a very accurate TX 200 is fast
but harder to cock use and still is not as competitive as your supercharged SCUBA !
WHY not ALLOW all of them and then IMPOSE a numerical handicap to the scores ???
Please consider this for participation sake ...
A shooter is going to participate IF they are are diehards ; or coming from ANOTHER discipline OR a newbie wants a cheap setup
so , MOST are going for an OLDER , obsolete , cheaper rifle , i.e. 400.00 and up ...
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Taps »

Don't know what is is about the users of this forum and polls but no-one seems to want to click on a button to vote.
500 odd views of this thread and only 32 have been bothered to vote.
Bobs' poll on the other thread about club websites has had over 1000 views and only 38 votes, is it that hard to click on a button?

Back to this thread, down here in Australia it is one in all in. Air rifle silhouette rules here state any air rifle.
So we have a mix of springers, 10m target and high end, high power PCP guns. Our attendances at the larger matches seem to be getting bigger but we don't have a dedicated multi-day shoot for air rifle. It is usually run as an 80 shot match the day before a 2 or 4 day S.B and H.P match.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

GSL wrote:HI ALL ;
HI Dustin ;
I have a very doable solution ;
A handicap system for ANY air rifle ... ALLOW any shooter to shoot whatever ! THEN see what category it basically fits into .
HANDICAP according to accuracy / energy . For example - A supercharged OPEN rifle pushing a heavy pellet at maybe 950 fps
that cuts a .50 inch group at 50 yds is Killer next to a GAMO air rifle ! A FEINWERKBAU 300 at 650 fps with a light pellet is not
as accurate with any sort of wind condition ... neither is ANY 10 meter scuba rifle ... Whereas a very accurate TX 200 is fast
but harder to cock use and still is not as competitive as your supercharged SCUBA !
WHY not ALLOW all of them and then IMPOSE a numerical handicap to the scores ???
Please consider this for participation sake ...
A shooter is going to participate IF they are are diehards ; or coming from ANOTHER discipline OR a newbie wants a cheap setup
so , MOST are going for an OLDER , obsolete , cheaper rifle , i.e. 400.00 and up ...
GSL
Scott,

I think what we did at the Friday airgun regional at last year's LAPUA Open in Winnsboro is actually the best solution to this issue. It's KINDA like your suggestion but also very different.

Instead of having three separate matches, one for each rifle, we ran one 80-shot match. Each competitor was allowed to enter with whatever type of rifle he or she chose, but only one. If the rifle was a springer, the shooter was entered in the Sporter competition. If the rifle was a 10 meter gun, the shooter was entered in the Target competition. Every rifle, including Open-only rifles, was eligible for the Open competition.

We gave out all the normal awards, including Open rifle champion, Sporter rifle champion, Target rifle champion, High Senior, High Woman, High Junior and first place in each class of each rifle.

The shooter who shot the highest score, regardless of which rifle he or she was using, won the Open championship (since all rifles are eligible for Open rifle). The shooter that shot the highest score with a Target rifle won the Target championship and the shooter that shot the highest score with a Sporter rifle win the Sporter championship. Each class was given awards in the same way. The special awards were just the best score by a senior, junior, and woman regardless of which rifle they shot.

This seemed to solve all the problems. Shooters only had to bring one rifle so if they just had one they could bring it and shoot it in whatever rifle it classified in. No one was at a disadvantage shooting against open guns with a Sporter or a target rifle. There was an incentive to shoot a harder-to-shoot Sporter or target rifle because those rifles allowed you to win the championship or your class in two different rifles. We didn't have to wear everyone out by shooting three matches with three different rifles in one day. It worked out very well and was very easy to do after everyone understood it.

The next time we run a regional or state air rifle championship, we're going to do it this way. It makes it much easier on everyone and does not require a rule change. This format also makes it very easy to tack an air rifle match onto an existing smallbore regional or state championship, which in my opinion is the best way to run air rifle matches instead of them being standalone events.

The key, of course, to having this format increase participation is for air rifle regionals and state championships to actually happen in places around the country using this format. That way, when a shooter does come out to club matches and sees people shooting three different types of rifles they can rest assured that only one of those rifles will be used in championship matches. So new shooters can get one rifle of whatever type they choose and shoot it at club matches and also be able to shoot full regional and state championship matches.

This does nothing to help participation at the nationals but participation at the nationals is not nearly as important as having more shooters across the country shooting air rifle silhouette.

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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

Taps wrote: down here in Australia it is one in all in. Air rifle silhouette rules here state any air rifle.
So we have a mix of springers, 10m target and high end, high power PCP guns. Our attendances at the larger matches seem to be getting bigger but we don't have a dedicated multi-day shoot for air rifle. It is usually run as an 80 shot match the day before a 2 or 4 day S.B and H.P match.
This is exactly how we should do it.

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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by acorneau »

Taps wrote:Don't know what is is about the users of this forum and polls but no-one seems to want to click on a button to vote.
500 odd views of this thread and only 32 have been bothered to vote.
500 views is total views, not 500 individuals viewing the thread. If you take 500 views divided by the 32 people who voted you have each person viewing the thread 15.6 times. I know I've visited this thread probably 10 times since it started and Dustin's probably viewed it closer to 20 times now. Add in a few people who haven't voted and it adds up nicely.

:-B
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

If Air Rifle is going to just one rifle, then smallbore should also go to just one rifle. I would vote to go to just Hunter Rifle in Smallbore. Very few people shoot the Standard rifle now and most of those people have a Hunter rifle already. This would make it easier for competitors by eliminating another rifle that they have to travel with.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by BrentD »

If the change was to guarantee that all matches (not just arbitrary regionals) would triple in the number of shots for record, it might be helpful - but that wasn't part of the original question or ballot. Many other silhouette rifle matches are single-day, single-rifle affairs, even when there are multiple rifles in the discipline.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by cedestech »

atomicbrh wrote:If Air Rifle is going to just one rifle, then smallbore should also go to just one rifle. I would vote to go to just Hunter Rifle in Smallbore. Very few people shoot the Standard rifle now and most of those people have a Hunter rifle already. This would make it easier for competitors by eliminating another rifle that they have to travel with.
^^^ has a point...
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

My family does not shoot highpower rifle silhouette but the same train of thought goes there. How about going to just Hunter Rifle Highpower? That eliminates the Centerfire Heavy rifle, the Smallbore Heavy Rifle, the Target Air Rifle and the Sporter Air Rifle. That is four rifles you do not have to buy, store, buy optics for, practice with or travel with. You can just shoot more relays with the rifle divisions that are left. At the National Smallbore and Highpower matches you can shoot 6 matches with the one rifle for a 3 day, 240 round match.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Doodaddy »

I realize this isn't an exact comparison, but I think the principles remain. There are a three major rimfire benchrest organizations: IR50/50, PSL, and ARA. PSL and ARA are one gun games with no limits on anything and their numbers are steady if not growing. IR50/50 requires three guns and two different rest systems. Its numbers are decreasing.

I get the appeal of have added complexity making the sport more "interesting" for established shooters, but the hassle (not counting finances) of getting involved for new shooters is very off putting. I'm apart of hosting an air rifle regional and I don't even really shoot air rifle because I have absolutely zero desire to deal with procuring three rifles and everything that comes with it.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

LOL, now we've opened a can of worms!!

The hunter rifle in both HP and SB was a terrible mistake made a long time ago. With the nature of silhouette there should be almost no restrictions on the rifle you can shoot. Think you can hold a 16 lb rifle all day and shoot a good score? By all means, go for it. Think a thumbhole stock is going to help you? Go for it. Think a bull barrel will help your score over a tapered one? Have at it! It's absurd that a shooter can't drop some money on a position rifle like an Anschutz 2013, throw a scope on it, and be done buying smallbore silhouette rifles forever.

There should be three types of scoped rifle silhouette: Highpower (anything goes that doesn't damage the targets); Smallbore (anything goes that is .22lr) and Air rifle (anything goes that doesn't damage the targets). Wouldn't it be so nice not to have to BUILD a hunter gun but be able to go BUY a position gun and fit it to yourself??? Ahhh, what a novel idea!

The fact is that more rifles and more restrictions make the game more expensive and less tempting to new shooters - and the restrictions on rifles has almost zero affect on scores.

HOWEVER, there are a LOT of shooters who are heavily invested in specialized equipment that meets the rules for both highpower and smallbore. A major rule change in either of those games would probably be fatal. I am for leaving things alone in HP and SB even though the restrictions and additional rifles were a mistake in the first place.

Air rifle silhouette is a lot different for two reasons:

(1) Shooters are not FORCED to have a standard rifle to compete in HP and SB. The calibers are the same and the shooter is not at a noticeable handicap shooting a hunter rifle in standard. Shooters can easily get away with one rifle. That's not so in ARS, the rules don't allow a shooter to shoot all three classes with one rifle and if you shoot all three classes with two rifles you are at a serious disadvantage in Open rifle with a Target or Sporter rifle.

(2) There are not nearly as many people invested in air rifle silhouette; a rule change at this point would not kill the sport and would probably grow the game a bunch.

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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by richard »

The assumption that participation would increase by going to only one air rifle class is beyond ridiculous. The reason there are three classes is to give everyone a chance to shoot regardless of the type of airgun they have. We already don't have good participation. To go to less classes would decrease it even more! Beats me why more people don't shoot airgun silo. I like it more than Field Target but for that we get participation. People don't shoot silhouette for all kinds of reasons including that it is too difficult and I do not advocate making any of the shooting games easier. Some people just don't care about airguns and don't even consider them and unfortunately some are just lazy and we cannot force people to do stuff nor should we. Running more matches would help. Not many clubs actually run airgun matches and some run matches that are not NRA approved or even worse make up their own rules.
I also point out that many air rifles easily qualify to be shot in two classes so needing three guns is bogus, plus at most local matches we unfortunately are only able to run two relays which also eliminates the need for three guns. Most guys shoot one gun anyway. Three classes also makes it more fair (something some people continually complain about in shooting!). The comment about wind and shooting a target rifle is laughable. So don't shoot it!, but if you do, the wind is there for everyone at the match so it is all relative anyway. Target guns are fantastic to shoot but yes, you do have to struggle sometimes on longer shots, but would you want to compete against an open class rifle? One class would only make the game unfair and limit participation.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by glen ring »

I have read all the very good points of Dustin Flint's keynote responses and I must say I believe he has a point of going to one Rifle for ARS.

To Dick's response ..I think Dustin is more qualified to render an opinion on THIS topic than anyone else in the United States. If Dustin Flint thinks one rifle in ARS would grow numbers, he's probably right.

Dustin Flint is open minded and has solicited the opinions of others on this subject in lieu taking any arbitrary actions concerning the topic.


The thought of buying six air rifles and six scopes to compete is a STOP sign for my wife and I. The thought of buying Two rifles and scopes to compete with is attractive.

I think buying ONE rifle/scope combo will generate more interest in the sport AND open up more venues to shoot at. We ( Jeanne and our fellow shooters at Oklahoma City ) have all talked about starting a ARS program there.

Those that disagree with Dustin's ideas on this topic should surely take on the responsibility of putting on a big ARS match to test their theory ...or do the smart thing and let Dustin handle what needs to be done.

IF you know me at all, you know I don't hesitate to speak my mind. Dustin and I have " crossed swords" on shooting topics in the past and may do it again, but on this topic I consider him as the qualified expert and will defer my opinions to his.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by BrentD »

The arguments in favor of just one gun sure seem weak to me. Talk about grasping at straws in last-ditch desperation...

Air-rifle silhouette is out of fashion just like bell-bottom jeans and Birkenstocks. Some still do, but it's not where the crowds are going.

Ruling out different guns won't make Airgun any more popular that bankrupting Birkenstocks will make bell-bottoms more popular.

Meanwhile, look at any of the shooting sports that sky rocketed and then fell back. This pattern has been repeated countless times. It will continue. And it is not just shooting sports - downhill skiing is being replaced by snowboards like ARS is being replaced by IDPA, BPTR is being replaced by F-class and then, of course, there are all those combat-like, high-tech, "reality" shooting games.

But have at it.

Meanwhile someone will invent combat-airgun competitions, new super high-tech black-plastic airguns will be developed and hoards (relatively) will flock to the new games. I wouldn't be surprised if this has already started.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Ken Green »

I do agree with Richard on what he has posted. There is no rule that says any one has to shoot all 3 rifles for ARS. I like having 3 different classes to shoot in. I like having a choice of which rifle I want to shoot. There have been some match days that I wanted to shoot just 2 rifles and some match days I choose to shoot all 3 classes. I have all 3 rifles because I have chosen to buy and shoot all 3 rifles. In just my opinion, but I think that you would shoot more with shooting all 3 rifles in a weekend, than shooting just 1 rifle for that weekend. I also like having the freedom to choose which rifle that I want to shoot, instead of being limited to just shooting one rifle.

I don't understand why some people don't want to shoot the 10 meter target class rifle because they have to deal with the wind. Last weekend, I shot a 32 with my target rifle in the wind. I am barely a AAA shooter and this is my 1st master class score in any class. I did not have a spotter either. I believe that two of the rams I missed was because that wind switched and I did not see it. I would rather have a spottter that knows how to make the correct wind call, than to shoot my open class rifle with no spotter.

I know that some people would rather travel with one rifle case, than travel with 2 or 3 rifle cases. I do understand that it is easier to travel with just one case instead of 3 cases. I could be wrong but I think that this might be a reason behind this poll that Dustin has started. If I could afford it and decided to fly to a match, then I would just accept the fact, that I would have to deal with 3 cases and deal with it.

The next thing is to address the people that voted in the poll that do not shoot ARS. Why are the non shooters not already shooting ARS. If it is because there are no matches, then the easy cure for that is to just step up and start running a match and quit making excuses. If you start hosting and running a match, then you are guaranteed to have at least one shooter showing up to shoot. You never know, somebody else might just show up and shoot with you.

Glenn Ring: You said that you have a set of 40 air rifle targets. That sounds like a complete set of animals. You also said that there are no matches close to you. If you are shooting the 40 air rifle targets every day, then you are already shooting a match every day from your porch. I think you already have everything that you need to set up a match a run it. If you have room to shoot air rifles in your yard, then you have enough room to hold a match. You don't need a gun club to hold an air rifle match. Just register the matches with the NRA and just start holding matches in the back yard at your house.
Last edited by Ken Green on Fri Mar 17, 2017 7:46 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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