How many air rifles???

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How would you feel if air rifle silhouette went to one rifle?

I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
10
20%
I do not currently shoot air rifle silhouette and WOULD NOT likely start if the rules moved to one rifle.
12
24%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
8
16%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and DO NOT believe that a move to one rifle would increase participation.
20
40%
I currently shoot air rifle silhouette and would likely QUIT if the rules moved to one rifle.
0
No votes
 
Total votes: 50

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dustinflint
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How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

Planning for the Air Rifle Silhouette National Championships in Baton Rouge on May 19-21 is underway and the NRA is curious about the future of air rifle silhouette.

On the surface, one would think that air rifle silhouette would be the most popular rifle silhouette game. [It can be shot almost anywhere, no need for berms or fancy facilities to keep bullets on the property and no noise issues. It's easy and cheap to get targets - they are small, use little material, don't require quality steel, can be easily shipped. The cost of pellets is a fraction of that of small-bore or highpower ammunition. There are lots of readily-available, reasonably-priced air rifles perfect for the game. (plus other reasons)] In reality, air rifle silhouette is the least-popular rifle silhouette sport.

The reason for not shooting air-rifle silhouette that I hear the most from silhouette shooters is that the expense of buying two or three air rifles and two or three scopes is just too much.

In addition, several folks tell us that they'd like to come to Baton Rouge for the Air Rifle Silhouette national championships but flying with three rifles is too much of a hassle and too expensive.

Also, the conditions in some of the windy parts of the country make shooting Target Air rifle silhouette impossible - so clubs don't even try it.

The committee that runs the nationals and the NRA competitive shooting division are interested to learn whether a rule change would improve participation. The specific question is whether we could gain competitors and increase participation at air rifle national, regional and state matches, and add new matches around the country, if the rules moved from three air rifles (Open, Target and Sporter) to one air rifle (Open).

This subject has been discussed somewhere on this forum before, and everyone understands that a shooter can choose to shoot only one of the three air rifles, but most people opt not to get involved rather than to get multiple rifles or to have to choose to be limited to just one of the three.

This poll should apply to everyone - please answer it. Also please feel free to comment.

Thanks!

Dustin

P.S. While answering the poll, please ASSUME that there are air rifle silhouette matches close to where you live.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by JDMANN »

If going to one rifle will increase participation, then I'm for it. I vote one rifle.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by cedestech »

I voted that I shoot and don't believe one rifle rule would help.

If someone wants to do something, they WILL come up with the money to do it.

You can shoot and be competitive with a TX and a FWB300. Would 3 dedicated rifles including a laser beam PCP open and target rifle improve your scores? Absolutely. So would roll of pellets and hours of practice. One rifle would probably loose as many as you'd gain by the number of people with a pair of useless rifles (assuming springer was the one rifle) who'd be annoyed they no longer had a place to shoot their rifles. If I remember the stories correctly (wasn't shooting at that time) it would be like when everyone built chin guns then they were dropped.

YMMV and strictly IMHO....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

cedestech wrote: One rifle would probably loose as many as you'd gain by the number of people with a pair of useless rifles (assuming springer was the one rifle) who'd be annoyed they no longer had a place to shoot their rifles. If I remember the stories correctly (wasn't shooting at that time) it would be like when everyone built chin guns then they were dropped.
Yeah I'm interested in the number of people that would throw up their hands and quit too - which is which is why I added it as an option in the poll. The chin gun comparison has been brought up too. The difference is that there are not a ton of people invested in air rifle silhouette now. Most air rifle silhouette shooters are more hardcore silhouette shooters and would just roll with the rule change. Hopefully if the rule changed existing shooters would keep shooting their open guns and maybe even sell rifles for money to upgrade their one open rifle.

Another option is to run some regional and state matches like we did at Winnsboro last year and like Field Target does: choose one of the three matches to enter and bring one rifle that works.

I think we'd have lots more matches if it were easy to tack an air rifle match to a smallbore state or regional match - that doesn't really work if three rifles have to be shot.

It'll be interesting to see what everyone thinks.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by acorneau »

Dustin, yer killin' me Bro!

I just bought my second air rifle for silhouette, an Anschutz 2002 SuperAir as my Target rifle, along with a new scope a couple of weeks ago. I'm just now getting myself all set up for air rifle and now you want to go to one rifle?

L-)

Wouldn't going to just Open become much more of an equipment game instead of less? I know silhouette is mostly shooter performance rather than equipment, but why add the element of "if you don't have an über tricked-out, souped-up air rifle you're not going to do well" like the Field Target crowds?

Yes, if it goes to Open only then I would most likely sell my present rifles to fund the most bad-a$$ air rifle I could afford because I'm already hooked and not leaving any time soon. But, if I was someone looking at getting into air rifle with "Open rifle only" in effect I'd probably look at all the high-end rifles required to compete and say, "Forget it."

If anything I would say get rid of Open and just have Sporter and Target. I'm not saying that because that's what I've got, but Sporter has it's quirks (less adjustable rifles, tough to shoot well, but high power) as does Target (great ergonomics, easy to shoot well, but low power). Let the shooter who can best handle both ends of the spectrums win.


Oh, and is Cowboy Lever-action going to just one gun? If they can make it work why can't we?

b-(
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

I suggest that we keep all three divisions of air rifle silhouette but remember that we do not have to hold all three on the same weekend or at the same location. When you apply to the silhouette department on the green form you can specify that you are only holding the match for one of the three air rifles. You can hold just a Sporter rifle regional, just a target rifle regional or just a Open rifle regional. Same goes for the Nationals, Dustin can hold a Open rifle Nationals in Baton Rouge for example. Then, Gabby and Wimpy can hold a Sporter rifle Nationals in Beaumont for example. You can make them two day 160 matches even.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by BrentD »

Kind of an odd poll, to put it kindly.

I'm not an air rifle shooter - at least not for silhouette. I would be interested, but not if I have to go up against race guns in an "open" class. Make it one rifle, SPORTER and then I might just be interested (if a match showed up near by). But really, since anyone can go shoot just "open" or any other class right now, how is this going to make more shooters? At best, it will condense a few.

Seems like a really odd and even counterproductive idea to me.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

acorneau wrote: I'm just now getting myself all set up for air rifle and now you want to go to one rifle?
Allen, this is not me. All I'm doing is looking for ways to increase participation - but I'll give my opinion here and my opinion (even though I already have all the rifles) is that one rifle is better for the future (but that's just one person's opinion).

For a long time, there was an effort to have an air rifle silhouette national championship and for a long time the NRA refused. The reason was participation. There are two things that the NRA wants to see to continue national championships: lots of people and people from lots of different places. Every year I'm asked two questions: (1) what can be done to get more participation; and (2) what can be done to get people from different places to the nationals?

We need more people shooting air rifles. So, we are not really looking at people LIKE YOU ARE NOW but looking at people LIKE YOU WERE BEFORE you were shooting air rifle silhouette. As it stands, you've bought two air rifles and two scopes and you still don't have everything you need to be optimally competitive in each class of air rifle. If we didn't have multiple rifles, you would have been set after buying your first air rifle. So the question is, what is more likely to get a guy like the guy you were shooting air rifles? Needing to get one rifle and scope or needing to get two or three rifles and scopes?

Don't worry about your rifles by the way, nothing is going to change anytime soon if ever. This is just conversation.
acorneau wrote: Wouldn't going to just Open become much more of an equipment game instead of less? I know silhouette is mostly shooter performance rather than equipment, but why add the element of "if you don't have an über tricked-out, souped-up air rifle you're not going to do well" like the Field Target crowds?
This is simply not the way silhouette is and no matter how much people fear an equipment race, silhouette will never be an equipment race. I paid $650 for my open rifle and that rifle holds every single over the course national record there is.

Plus, even if there were some sort of an equipment race with the open rifle, there is just as much an equipment race with the target rifle and even the sporter rifle. So, we get to spend lots of money on three rifles instead of one rifle.
acorneau wrote:If I was someone looking at getting into air rifle with "Open rifle only" in effect I'd probably look at all the high-end rifles required to compete and say, "Forget it."
That's what people are doing now times three. I'm constantly hearing "if I could buy just one rifle and scope, I would do it but I can't afford to buy three."
acorneau wrote:Oh, and is Cowboy Lever-action going to just one gun? If they can make it work why can't we?
I personally think cowboy would be better without the pistol cartridge rifle. PC is the same course of fire with the same size targets as smallbore lever gun but with a more expensive and more annoying rifle. Plus it adds a whole new set of expenses to a gun club having to get a whole new set of heavier targets. I have no idea how PC rifle ever got approved by the committee (but how the PC rifle and the hunter rifle and the target and sporter rifle got past the committee is a whole new discussion for a whole new day).

It's an interesting discussion. What I've found talking to guys that already shoot air rifles and have all the guns is that most of them are only concerned with what they already have invested in. I don't see a lot of thought about the future of the game or increasing numbers.

Also, this is just something that the committee may one day discuss. It's not like there is any imminent change coming. I personally am more for a change in the format that we run matches (to look more like the field target model) than I am in favor of a rule change.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by dustinflint »

atomicbrh wrote:You can hold just a Sporter rifle regional, just a target rifle regional or just a Open rifle regional.
That's right. Although I think it's better to do it like we did in Winnsboro last year. That seemed to go over well.
atomicbrh wrote:Same goes for the Nationals, Dustin can hold a Open rifle Nationals in Baton Rouge for example. Then, Gabby and Wimpy can hold a Sporter rifle Nationals in Beaumont for example. You can make them two day 160 matches even.
Can't do that. It's all or none for the air rifle national championship.

Dustin
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Ken Green »

cedestech wrote:I voted that I shoot and don't believe one rifle rule would help.

If someone wants to do something, they WILL come up with the money to do it.

YMMV and strictly IMHO....
I have to agree with Cedestech. I have all 3 rifles and I plan to keep shooting all 3 rifles. If someone wants to buy one rifle and shoot in one class only, then they will only have to worry about shooting one rifle. If someone wants to buy just a springer or either buy just a 10 meter rifle, then both of those rifles can be shoot in 2 classes each. So you only need to have 2 rifles to shoot in all 3 classes. Since most silhouette shooters have all 3 rifles, I am sure a lot of them would rather shoot all 3 of them. If you have them, then shoot them.

Even if someone wanted to go buy that 1 of a kind ultra accurate, über tricked-out, souped-up air rifle, they still have to actually hold it in their hands and stand on their own two feet with no support and hit the target to score a point. I personally don't think reducing air rifle silhouette down to just 1 rifle, is going to really achieve anything in the long run.

When I started shooting silhouette and field target back in 2004, I saw all of these fine high dollar rifles and I knew that I could not afford to buy those rifle and be competitive. But the shooters in both groups, welcomed me with open arms, let me shoot their rifles and helped me a lot. It was the shooters that made me feel welcome and that made me want to keep coming back to another match.

A lot of new 1st time shooters, see all of the fancy high dollar rifles and think that they have to have the same equipment to start with. They are turned off by the thought of having to lay out that much money for equipment. If someone truly wants to get involved and shoot, then they will find a way to get the funds to get into silhouette.

The truth being that silhouette is the hardest discipline of all the shooting sports to master and do well. It takes a lot of time putting pellets down range on target, dry fire practice and the dedication to be competitive in this sport. YOU CAN NOT buy your way into master class no matter what rifle you buy. I have top of the line rifles, and I am no where being a master class shooter but I am working on getting there.

I know some shooters don't want to have to deal with more than one rifle, if they are flying to a match. I can understand their point of view in dealing with the air lines and the hassle of it.

I think the younger generation of today is a microwave generation. They want it NOW and they want it east to get and instant gratification. They really are not interested in putting in the hard work and dedication it takes for silhouette. They would rather stay inside and play video games, then go outside.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Jason »

I know that this is not one of the proposed answers to the central question you are asking here, but what would get me more likely to compete in an air rifle silhouette national championship is having a regular air rifle silhouette match near me so I wouldn't have to build out a rifle and scope that I could only shoot for score once a year. With as heavy a silhouette presence as we have here in Washington, I don't know of a single air rifle silhouette match being held. I remember it being attempted many years ago by a field target match director, and I only attended one. It was a bit of a train wreck, with the firing line being on uneven gravel shooting at a fairly steep angle down at resettable targets that looked partially hidden by grass. Needing three separate rifles (actually can get by with only two, as has been pointed out, but will be at a disadvantage in windy conditions) does indeed make this problem a bit worse, but needing only one doesn't fix it. The question that should be asked is how we can get more air rifle silhouette matches.

For personal preferences, I have no interest in owning a springer for a competition. I have shot one a fair amount and didn't really see any benefit in my shooting skills for smallbore and highpower silhouette above what I could learn with a target or open air rifle. For those of us in master class with powder-burning rifles, that last "AAA to master" step in skill in shooting a springer seemed unique to shooting a springer, and didn't seem worth it to me. I felt that I learned more about follow through and accurate calling of my shots with the slow pellet velocity and uber accuracy of a target rifle. The additional shock that a springer puts on a scope is even more of a reason not to have one. Beyond that, I'm sure my bias is toward what I have and what I'd like to shoot just like everyone else. Shooting my Anschutz 8002 that I normally shoot for position rifle matches with a scope means that I would just need to add a scope and I would be in business for target and able to at least compete in open.

If there is going to be only one class, it would have to be very similar to the current open class. I think that would be a bit too limiting, though. If there are two classes, I think it should be target and open. This is similar to both smallbore and highpower silhouette. Many shooters shoot both hunter and standard class nationals and major matches with one smallbore hunter rifle and one highpower hunter rifle. Those same shooters could shoot both target and open with one rifle. Those who want to go all out on two complete rifles can do so. Changing from three classes to two actually changes the requirement to compete and be able to do almost as well as those who go all out from two rifles to one.

For attendance at a national championship, I also think having two rifle classes would be better. Two rifles can be carried in the same case just like with smallbore and highpower rifles, and ammo for them definitely can be carried easily. Flying with three rifles starts to get very expensive, though. I would also be more likely to travel to a big match where I could shoot more matches. A familiar and attractive weekend format for me would be to have a target rifle match each morning and an open rifle match each afternoon (when there is likely to be more wind), with rifle classification awards and aggregate awards given at the end of the fourth match. It would also be fine with me, and might fit into a few more people's schedules, if there were two matches for target rifle on Saturday and two matches for open rifle on Sunday, with rifle classification awards given after that rifle's matches were done and aggregates given after the second day's matches were done.

With all of that said, though, I still don't think the sport is attractive enough to get most shooters to come to a big match if they don't have at least one local match that they can attend. Unless we fix that, I'm not sure anything is going to improve national championship attendance. I'm already match director of our local smallbore silhouette matches, so running an air rifle silhouette match wouldn't be terribly hard to do. I might even be able to get the club to spring for some resettable targets, but I'm not at all confident that I'd get any shooters to show up at the match, since it would be competing with other smallbore and cowboy silhouette matches in the area.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by Ken Green »

Jason: No one says that you have to shoot more than one rifle. You can have an open class rifle and shoot that one rifle only if you want.

We have a club member that shoots his open class rifle match only.

As far as more matches, you might have to start the matches. Since you already shoot silhouette, then you know how everything needs to be setup.
Get one set of targets and just start holding matches.

We hold our matches on Sunday afternoon. That way the shooters that go to church are able to shoot.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by SqHunter »

I find it interesting that both Cowboy and Air Rifle require more equipement and more money than smallbore.... and smallbore is supposed to be the "race" class that so many people throw off on.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by atomicbrh »

I think we should study what is happening with the Smallbore prone and 3P NRA matches that were once held at Camp Perry. To me our air rifle situation is similar to their smallbore situation. A change of venue was the supposed solution to lack of participation there but it does not appear to have worked. Here is the discussion link over on targettalk.

http://targettalk.org/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=54656
Last edited by atomicbrh on Tue Mar 14, 2017 6:09 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: How many air rifles???

Post by shooterer »

I would vote for 2 classes:
Factory - Stock rifle, fixed stock with no OUTSIDE modifications and any sights, 13 lbs weight. Rifle specs would follow small-bore rifle rules for comb, toe, sight height etc.

Open - anything goes with iron sights only (so I can use my 10m rifle)

I currently do not shoot air rifle silhouette because no clubs offer it in my area. I hope that will change in time.
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