classifications
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- AA Poster
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Re: classifications
Yep. Sounds great to me. So, who is gonna set this up to handle everyone and manage this on a weekly basis?
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- AA Poster
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Re: classifications
Makes a person wonder if the sandbagging the score books isn't the major factor behind competitions wanting to do away with the books and go with the reporting as happens in the target rifle disciplines?
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Re: classifications
I think it goes without saying that no matter which side of the fence you are on, the vast majority of us want to be reclassified pursuant to the rules. That being said, I think the rules are very clear on this subject. The attached PDF is from the inside front and back covers of the 2017 Rifle Silhouette Classification Score Record Book. This book is the only information a match director or stat officer has with which to make a determination on reclassification. Note the title "INSTRUCTIONS FOR USE OF THIS CLASSIFICATION BOOKLET". That is pretty specific, it's saying here are the instructions to follow. If you will read the instructions, you will note that when the booklet is issued, the two highest scores from the last year fired are entered at the top. There is no instruction to make inquiries as to high scores from 5 years ago, just the last year fired. Four bullet points below that instruction, is one telling the match official how to use these scores for reclassification. Remember, the scores recorded in the booklet are all he has to go on. Please note that these are INSTRUCTIONS for using the classification booklet. This is not Rule 19.5, nor is it Rule 19.17, it is the interpretation of the rule provided for us by NRA. We don't need to come up with our own interpretations, these instructions clearly tell us what to do, and that the scores IN THE BOOK, are to be used for reclassification.
I would love to make Master in every discipline that I shoot, but I probably will not. Have I shot 3 master scores in them, in most, yes, but it has been over a number of years in some of them, and in a 2 year period in others. Reclassification occurs when a shooter has demonstrated expertise in a given discipline by consistently shooting scores in a higher class, not by having 3 really good days over a 5 year period. Just ask yourself, does shooting 3 master scores in 5 years make you a master shooter, for me, the answer is a resounding NO! Does shooting 3 or 4 or 5 master scores in a 2 year period make you a master shooter, the book say it does, and I do as well.
I would love to make Master in every discipline that I shoot, but I probably will not. Have I shot 3 master scores in them, in most, yes, but it has been over a number of years in some of them, and in a 2 year period in others. Reclassification occurs when a shooter has demonstrated expertise in a given discipline by consistently shooting scores in a higher class, not by having 3 really good days over a 5 year period. Just ask yourself, does shooting 3 master scores in 5 years make you a master shooter, for me, the answer is a resounding NO! Does shooting 3 or 4 or 5 master scores in a 2 year period make you a master shooter, the book say it does, and I do as well.
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- A Poster
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Re: classifications
Yes, cedestech "system" should have been "procedure". Then I wish to ask as long as the match director has the duty to upclass shooters why should he not be able to also use the procedure to down class when shown the scores in the required number of booklets? I have asked at Nationals at least 2x why the minutes from the silhouette committee are not available and have no answer. The asked 'why' the items from the competitors meeting were not addressed also has never been answered. Have any of you had better success with questions? Happy Easter
Close only counts with grenades and horseshoes.
- Bob259
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Re: classifications
And in addition, why when someone writes into the Committee with recommendations, etc. why do they NEVER receive a written or email response as to the outcome. Some times you have to wonder if the committee even sees what people send in, or is it sent to the circular file before the committee meets.rogersptl wrote:Yes, cedestech "system" should have been "procedure". Then I wish to ask as long as the match director has the duty to upclass shooters why should he not be able to also use the procedure to down class when shown the scores in the required number of booklets? I have asked at Nationals at least 2x why the minutes from the silhouette committee are not available and have no answer. The asked 'why' the items from the competitors meeting were not addressed also has never been answered. Have any of you had better success with questions? Happy Easter
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- Jim Beckley
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Re: classifications
At the competitors meeting for HP in Raton last year Laura Goetch led the meeting, questions about wearing a glove was brought up, specifically an archery type glove, she stated that they were not allowed, then position shooting boots was brought up, she stated that the silhouette committee would discuss the issue at their meeting. Haven't heard anything. Like a mushroom, kept in the dark and fed bullshit.
U.S. Army-Donating blood since 1775.
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Re: classifications
Funny thing to me is this is OBVIOUSLY a touchy subject. It wouldn't be 5 pages long in a few days if not. Why is "sandbagging" such a problem or perceived problem? I mean really. We are ALL earning about the same amount of money shooting silhouette.
If there is no financial gain then all that leaves is ego. I don't want to sound like some new age, snowflake, tree hugging goof but if your ego is that large then you probably should do some introspection. The ego is probably what is holding you back from shooting better or being happy shooting to the best of your ability and enjoying the camaraderie.
It's a game, life is short, none of us are going to get out alive....
If there is no financial gain then all that leaves is ego. I don't want to sound like some new age, snowflake, tree hugging goof but if your ego is that large then you probably should do some introspection. The ego is probably what is holding you back from shooting better or being happy shooting to the best of your ability and enjoying the camaraderie.
It's a game, life is short, none of us are going to get out alive....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
- BrentD
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Re: classifications
I see no sign that sandbagging is any more likely than 3 million illegal voters in the last election. If it occurs, its damn rare. I'd much rather be a Master shooter - and I've worked hard to earn it in some disciplines. But I haven't done it as described by the rule book, which, as GTS points out is pretty darn clear. You have to work really really hard to not understand that.
Meanwhile, every time I have written in suggestions about one or another rule change I have ALWAYS received a pair of responses, first acknowledging that my letter has been received and then another telling me that my suggestions were discussed and dismissed by the committee. Nothing in the dark about that.
Meanwhile, every time I have written in suggestions about one or another rule change I have ALWAYS received a pair of responses, first acknowledging that my letter has been received and then another telling me that my suggestions were discussed and dismissed by the committee. Nothing in the dark about that.
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- Master Poster
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Re: classifications
Amazing the two extremes people have:
One group practices and works hard to hit every animal they can and possibly move all the way up to Master class and match wins.
Another group that does everything they can to stay in as low a class as possible to win class awards when they think the match is important enough.
One group practices and works hard to hit every animal they can and possibly move all the way up to Master class and match wins.
Another group that does everything they can to stay in as low a class as possible to win class awards when they think the match is important enough.
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- AAA Poster
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Re: classifications
I just don't see the incentive of sandbagging in a sport that doesn't reward significantly valuable prizes in lower classifications. We're not talking about pool sharks here trying to lure a bet based on poor performance. Usually prizes in a silhouette match are a mug, plaque, certificate, etc etc. Are these prizes really worth working the system?
I'm not diminishing our match awards, but simply trying to assign perceived worth to further understand why someone would intentionally go out of their way to win one for a classification that they are "better" than. I kind of wonder if we're talking about an issue that could exist but doesn't really on a scale large enough to worry over.
If the match awards cash or ammo or something, I'd understand it better, but even then the value of the prize likely doesn't exceed what the entire expense for participating in the match was for the shooter so I still question incentive.
That's just me. Maybe there isn't a logical rationale for a sandbagger in this sport lol.
I'm not diminishing our match awards, but simply trying to assign perceived worth to further understand why someone would intentionally go out of their way to win one for a classification that they are "better" than. I kind of wonder if we're talking about an issue that could exist but doesn't really on a scale large enough to worry over.
If the match awards cash or ammo or something, I'd understand it better, but even then the value of the prize likely doesn't exceed what the entire expense for participating in the match was for the shooter so I still question incentive.
That's just me. Maybe there isn't a logical rationale for a sandbagger in this sport lol.
I am NOT Danny Hatch.
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Re: classifications
I have no idea what your incentives are to win a match or an award. EVERY TIME I win an award I get to take a beautiful woman home from the match and invariably That woman will make me drink Ice Cold beer and then want to sleep with me. Happens every time...but you may not be as lucky as I am.
Just Be Nice
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Re: classifications
So, are those the only times that you get "lucky".
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Re: classifications
There are other times, but it never fails when I win an award at a match. I have that gift . If Jeanne isn't with me at a match and I win an award all I can say is just don't be a hater !
Just Be Nice
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- AAA Poster
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Re: classifications
Some will do anything to win, even if it means cheating. It reflects how they were brought up. Sad, but these types of morals have been handed down generation after generation in the same families, relatives, etc.
There is cheating in other sports. ESPECIALLY in GOLF, where USGA handicaps are involved to determine what flight you are in for our City Tournament....for example. There is no right or wrong in their minds, when being dishonest with recording their scores to establish a USGA handicap in the system. "Just Do It" Long story short. The rule changed 3 years ago to catch those handicap cheaters we knew.
Wind was previously mentioned: Our dedicated Silhouette range is somewhat buffered by the wind with pine tree lined on both sides, plus from behind an behind the rams. Someone that is used to a windy range, will do much better on ours. How much does one compensate for gusts in between....say between 77 and 100 meters? I assume some ranges have winds all the time?
I thought I would write. I don't want to be declassified from an A to B as still have something to strive for.........
There is cheating in other sports. ESPECIALLY in GOLF, where USGA handicaps are involved to determine what flight you are in for our City Tournament....for example. There is no right or wrong in their minds, when being dishonest with recording their scores to establish a USGA handicap in the system. "Just Do It" Long story short. The rule changed 3 years ago to catch those handicap cheaters we knew.
Wind was previously mentioned: Our dedicated Silhouette range is somewhat buffered by the wind with pine tree lined on both sides, plus from behind an behind the rams. Someone that is used to a windy range, will do much better on ours. How much does one compensate for gusts in between....say between 77 and 100 meters? I assume some ranges have winds all the time?
I thought I would write. I don't want to be declassified from an A to B as still have something to strive for.........
LH CZ 452 Amer, Free Floated, FX-3 25X40, D3 Rings, TAC-22
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- Uber Master Poster
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Re: classifications
So........................ you win AAA at the nationals and you take home a little piece of rock with a pen. And.... everyone knows just exactly how you won that cheep award. What is the point?