classifications

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dustinflint
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Re: classifications

Post by dustinflint »

BrentD wrote:Simply not true. Or I'd be a master in BPCR irons and I'm not.
If you've shot three Master scores, you're Master.

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Re: classifications

Post by Jason »

Uhh.. no. The "NRA Silhouette Classification Books" section (19.5) in the rules clearly state that the two highest scores from the previous year should be entered at the top of the appropriate page for the discipline. The duties of the statistical officer of the tournament includes entering scores for that tournament and noting any necessary reclassification changes at the conclusion of that tournament using the information available to the statistical officer at the time, which is only the data in the classification book.

That data includes:
  • the competitor's current classification in that discipline
  • the two highest scores from the previous year in that discipline
  • the scores earned in that discipline from earlier in the current year
  • the scores earned in that discipline during the tournament just completed
There is no other data source from which the statistical officer would be expected to evaluate necessary classification changes and no other source defined or could be reliably provided.

Glen can always volunteer to compete in a higher classification by requesting to do so before the match/tournament, so he can compete as a master if he wants to in any NRA-sanctioned match or tournament.
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dustinflint
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Re: classifications

Post by dustinflint »

Sorry man, youre describing tradition, not the rule.

The rulebook is clear: Three scores in a higher classification moves you into that classification. There is no time limit to fire those scores. If it's not in the rulebook, it's not a rule.

The fact that the classification book is poorly structured does not change the rule. The fact that limited data is available to the match director from the classification book also does not change the rule. The words "from the last year of competition" should be removed from the classification book to make things clearer and provide the match director with the proper data for reclassification. The classification book should simply include the shooter's Lifetime best two previous matches.

This language in the classification book has caused all kinds of confusion over time to the point that people think that there is some two-year limit in the rules. So the tradition is to misapply the rule but traditionally misapplying the rule does not change the rule.

Of course, the silhouette committee can modify the rule and add a two year time limit if it so chooses. However, the clear language of the rule now does not include any time limit.

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Re: classifications

Post by glen ring »

Tim
You've heard it both ways and so have I. The rules need to be written better and I know you'll get a proper ruling

Dustin
I read it the same way that you do. Three scores and you move up regardless of time frame.
Dustin, I'm sure, has been required to peruse the fine print in contracts , negotiations , etc.

I have sat in federal and state court for HOURS explaining a vague or grey area in Policy, procedure , or a misinterpreted wording concerning a 4th amendment issue. "Shall " and " may " concerning any Policy/rule can be viewed/ argued either way.

I HOPE Tim gets the Correct ruling. I have worked VERY hard to be a master in cla and have only shot a master score one in a great while...but I know I've shot at least three in the last few years, just not in a two year period.

Thanks for putting in the call Tim.

I agree 100% with Dustin...this time ! xoxoxoxo
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Re: classifications

Post by cslcAl »

Here we go again. Two people call the silhouette department and ask the same question, and get two different answers. I'm not surprised.
All I know is, my first position at our club was statistical officer, back in 1984. The rule was the same then as it is now. You carried your two highest scores forward to the next year, and your current classification. If you were a AAA shooter and carried two master scores and did not shoot one more during that next year, you lost those two master scores.

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Jason
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Re: classifications

Post by Jason »

I'm not describing tradition. I'm describing the rules as written in the classification books that we use every year and we as match directors are accountable for abiding by if we run NRA-sanctioned rifle silhouette matches.

Rule 19.5 describing the classification books states this.
The two highest scores from the last year fired in each discipline will be entered at the top of the appropriate page.
Rule 19.17 regarding reclassification states this.
Previously carried forward high scores will be used to reclassify upward.
I'm stating that "previously carried forward high scores" in 19.17 refers specifically to the "two highest scores from the last year" as described in 19.5 previously.

Based upon this, I think it's clear what criteria is to be used for consideration of reclassification and what I intend to keep using when running my matches.
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Re: classifications

Post by lijeboy »

As a match director, I am anxious to get the ruling from the committee. And, of course, will follow whatever their ruling is.
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Re: classifications

Post by Jason »

lijeboy wrote:As a match director, I am anxious to get the ruling from the committee. And, of course, will follow whatever their ruling is.
I appreciate your optimism that we'll get an official, definitive answer and hope we get one. Until then, I'll just keep using the rules as written. :D
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Re: classifications

Post by glen ring »

If there are this many different opinions from intelligent, seasoned competitors , then the rules need clarification and rewording. That fact is most obvious . Like anything else...the final word will be by the silhouette folks at the NRA. If the ruling is three master scores period, then I'll be pleased. If the ruling is three in a two year period, then I'll need to work harder.

I heard a young man challenge an older man who was training him one day. The old guy's response was " That's the way we've always done things." The young guy replied " It's unfortunate that age and wisdom don't always walk hand and hand, so let's try the Right way for a change."
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dustinflint
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Re: classifications

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Jason wrote:I'm not describing tradition. I'm describing the rules as written in the classification books that we use every year and we as match directors are accountable for abiding by if we run NRA-sanctioned rifle silhouette matches.

Rule 19.5 describing the classification books states this.
The two highest scores from the last year fired in each discipline will be entered at the top of the appropriate page.
Rule 19.17 regarding reclassification states this.
Previously carried forward high scores will be used to reclassify upward.
I'm stating that "previously carried forward high scores" in 19.17 refers specifically to the "two highest scores from the last year" as described in 19.5 previously.

Based upon this, I think it's clear what criteria is to be used for consideration of reclassification and what I intend to keep using when running my matches.
I'm going to reply one more time then I'm done - I think.

Jason, I understand your reasoning, and it's not badly reasoned, it just adds a LOT of substance to the rule that is not there. (It's similar to the argument that gun control proponents make that the 2nd Amendment doesn't really say what the words say.)

Here is the rule on forced upward classification:
9.17 Reclassification - Competitors will be reclassified to a higher classification when they fire two scores in any higher classification to go from B class upward or three scores in any higher classification to go from A, AA, or AAA upward.
There is no mention of a time limit to fire the scores - so there is no time limit to fire the scores.

Later, the rule says:
Previously carried forward high scores will be used to reclassify upward.
That sentence means that previous scores are to be taken into consideration when forcing an upward classification. The sentence does not NARROW the rule to scores fired over a two-year period only, it BROADENS the general rule to include high scores fired in years before.

As you said, Jason:
I'm stating that "previously carried forward high scores" in 19.17 refers specifically to the "two highest scores from the last year" as described in 19.5 previously.
This ASSUMPTION is necessary to reach the two-year restriction that you're using. And while it's an understandable assumption in light of the confusing classification book, it is still reading words into the rule that simply aren't there.

So, by a strict reading of the words in the rule, without making any assumptions, there is no 2-year time restriction to fire the scores.

Here is a scenario that shows why it doesn't make any sense to assume the 2-year restriction:

Remember that this is a FORCED upward classification rule. The rules specifically allow a competitor to shoot in a higher class, so there are no achieved movements upward. This rule is to force shooters into a higher class.

Let's say that I am a AAA shooter. I shoot no club matches every but every year I shoot a single championship match and each year I shoot a high master score and each year I win AAA. Under your reading of the rule, I will never be forced to move to Master class because I don't shoot enough matches to get 3 master scores in a two-year period.

Because the intent of this rule is to force an upgrade, it doesn't make sense to assume a restriction that is not specified that allows a shooter to avoid the forced upgrade.

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Re: classifications

Post by Another Dang 9 »

I started shooting in 2002 and I always used the three shot rule for upgrades. Didn't matter how far apart they were. I'm also called the "King of the Sandbaggers" as I've been AAA in all three cowboy rifles for about 5 years. But then again I only shoot about 5-8 matches every year. To be upset about this rule is being dishonest to yourself. IMO
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Re: classifications

Post by dhatch »

So. I realize that I'm not the brightest porch light on our street, but am I understanding it right that even though I haven't ever shot a Master's score with any of my three lever action rifles, I can show up at any local or major tournament give them my book that shows such, but yet tell them to put me down to compete as a Master?
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Re: classifications

Post by Tlee »

dhatch wrote:So. I realize that I'm not the brightest porch light on our street, but am I understanding it right that even though I haven't ever shot a Master's score with any of my three lever action rifles, I can show up at any local or major tournament give them my book that shows such, but yet tell them to put me down to compete as a Master?

Yes... I've had a few shooters do exactly that from their very 1st Cowboy Rifle match they shot, stating because they'd already established themselves as Master Class in a different Silhouette discipline. I suppose it's to avoid an appearance of gamesmanship/sandbagging, the theory being it would not be fair for them to shoot in the lower classification against someone who'd shot a minimum number of silhouette matches. I guess it's a voluntary version of the "known ability" rule that MDs used to apply (that I can no longer find listed in the rules).

-Tim

PS - I found out late today why I haven't heard back from Greg Conner on my queries in the past week or two... He's now retired from NRA!
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Re: classifications

Post by Jerry G »

Someone please tell me how the match director at any shoot knows what scores someone has shot if they aren't on the book? Like JB and I have stated before, if you want to shoot in master class, just enter yourself in that class. You are welcome to go up but not down on your say-so. :-??

Bu the way, if you don't bring your stinkin book you will be put in master class.
Last edited by Jerry G on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:14 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: classifications

Post by cslcAl »

PS - I found out late today why I haven't heard back from Greg Conner on my queries in the past week or two... He's now retired from NRA!

Great, now you can call the silhouette department and ask two people the same question; and get no answer.

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