classifications

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Doodaddy
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Re: classifications

Post by Doodaddy »

glen ring wrote:I just want the rules cleared up so I can be a true master in CLA.
It's like having a fight with Tito Ortiz in the Octagon. If he trips walking into the cage and knocks himself out, I would get awarded the No Contest.. I would not like that. I would want the win fair and square.
I want the master classification fair and square. Calling myself a master isn't good enough if I didn't earn it.

Now you boys and girls have a nice night, drink a beer to cool down and Dustin Flint...go to ancestry.com and do some searching...the way you talk makes me think you're related to me somehow.

Now let's change the topic to something more entertaining than this. Who's had a colonoscopy ?
I met Tito one time. Nice guy.
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atomicbrh
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Re: classifications

Post by atomicbrh »

Al, Jason, Brent, my wife and our aerospace degree son are correct in their interpretation of the move up in classification rule. The score book has two spaces for the two highest scores fired in the last year of competition. The last year of competition is the last year you shot that discipline. If you did not shoot any matches in 2016 but shot in 2015, 2015 is your last year of competition. If it was not the three highest scores in a two year period for A and up, the scorebook would say lifetime high scores or just highest scores fired with no time frame specified. If it was not the two highest scores in a two year period to move up from B to A, the scorebook would say lifetime high scores or just highest scores fired with no time frame specified. There can be a gap of years of non-activity between those two years of competition that moves you up.

Jason is incorrect when he posted that it is three higher scores within a consecutive two year period. It is a two year period but the two years do not have to be consecutive if the competitor did not compete in consecutive years. It can be three higher scores(for A, AA, AAA, Master) in 1986 and 2017 to move up if you did not fire a single match from 1987 to 2016.

It is not tradition. The scorebook is an official publication of the NRA Competition Department just like the rulebook and must be considered as applicable as the rulebook.

Now this may come as a shock to Glen but there are many competitors who never buy a scorebook. Why should they need to? They are Master class shooters and thus are in the highest classification anyway. So they enter every match "unclassified" because they are going to be in Master anyway.

Somebody on this thread posted Greg Connor is retired. I do not think he is retired because his position is not listed as open on the NRA Career Opportunities website.
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Re: classifications

Post by Jason »

atomicbrh wrote:Jason is incorrect when he posted that it is three higher scores within a consecutive two year period. It is a two year period but the two years do not have to be consecutive if the competitor did not compete in consecutive years. It can be three higher scores(for A, AA, AAA, Master) in 1986 and 2017 to move up if you did not fire a single match from 1987 to 2016.
Yes, I agree with this. I corrected myself in one of my last few posts to this thread above.
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Re: classifications

Post by Gator »

I made two different attempts to get the scorebook to go at least 3-5 years by entering the scores as “25/31” where the 25 was last year and 31 the highest on the past 3-5 years. The decision of 3 or 5 years was not as important to me as the fact the scores were carried more than 1 year. In both cases, this proposal was dropped without any explanation. I personally don’t think it was ever discussed by the committee. This was at least 15 years ago and at the time was mainly directed toward Hunter Pistol. We had a sandbagging “AA” lady in Fla that won Hi Lady and some class awards at both the State and Nationals for several years. Continually got away with not presenting her scorecard throughout the year. I gave up trying to get any changes since the committee was more interested in changing calibers and gun specs to accommodate some competitors. Who the ever heard of a 270 WREN as a straight-sided pistol cartridge and what happened to the original concept of the “Hunter Rifle”.?
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Re: classifications

Post by DonM »

atomicbrh wrote:
Somebody on this thread posted Greg Connor is retired. I do not think he is retired because his position is not listed as open on the NRA Career Opportunities website.
From the Bpcr/CLA national match director post on the Shiloh forum

You are right. Willing's last day was April 11th. Connor's was April 7th.

In the mean time, Liz Bush, who is presently Managing Director Recreational Programs and Ranges, is the new Director of the Competitions Division. She is being backed up by Samantha Olsen. Both, so far, seem to be more dedicated than Conner. More later...................
....................................Jim
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Re: classifications

Post by BrentD »

glen ring wrote:I just want the rules cleared up so I can be a true master in CLA.
It's like having a fight with Tito Ortiz in the Octagon. If he trips walking into the cage and knocks himself out, I would get awarded the No Contest.. I would not like that. I would want the win fair and square.
I want the master classification fair and square. Calling myself a master isn't good enough if I didn't earn it.
We do think alike. I got 2 master scores in the books for bpcr scope and then campaigned hard for the 3rd and got it. Mission accomplished but I had to shoot scope class at a bunch of matches I would have preferred to shoot with irons. The next year the same thing happened with irons and I went after the third score hard. I went to matches I would not ordinarily have gone to, just to try for the third one. Didn't make it in time. So, no master. I don't mind shooting master class, but I can't brag that I'm a master shooter in that discipline - I'm not. Not yet anyway, regardless of what the self-appointed sheriff says.
Now let's change the topic to something more entertaining than this. Who's had a colonoscopy ?
I can help with that...http://www.miamiherald.com/living/liv-c ... 28847.html
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Re: classifications

Post by rogersptl »

For what it's worth. I vote with Jerry G, Jason and Al. Seems with Dustin's interpretation there is no reason for the down classification system. With the 'scores over the life time' how would any downward classification be possible? How many of us old farts still shoot as we once did? Should we be required to shoot without little chance of even winning a class? Yes, we shoot against ourselves but the class system has a purpose to award more than just the top shooter. If only the top shooter gets awarded, how long will the lower class individuals 'pay the price' to shoot rather than head off to a different spot/game. Then should we bring up Greg Connors direct violation of the rules when he gave a written letter that allowed a KNOWN MASTER classed shooter to 'start over' due the shooter claiming he hadnt shot in 12 years. I saw that as cheating several matches out of an entrance fees while the shooter rec'd the '12 lower scores' as required to down class. Instead with the letter only one match [score] was needed to establish a new class. Happy Easter all.
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Re: classifications

Post by cedestech »

rogersptl wrote: Seems with Dustin's interpretation there is no reason for the down classification system.

What is "the system"? As far as I know it's petitioning the NRA? Seems fairly objective for a "system".
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Re: classifications

Post by glen ring »

I want to thank you all for making my case that this rule(s) needs clarification from the NRA. Tim Lee , The ball is now in your court.

If anyone knows Tito Ortiz..I really wouldn't want to fight/meet him...maybe his wife, but that's another topic to be discussed over many beers and not on any public forum.
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Re: classifications

Post by Bob259 »

rogersptl wrote:For what it's worth. I vote with Jerry G, Jason and Al. Seems with Dustin's interpretation there is no reason for the down classification system. With the 'scores over the life time' how would any downward classification be possible? How many of us old farts still shoot as we once did? Should we be required to shoot without little chance of even winning a class? Yes, we shoot against ourselves but the class system has a purpose to award more than just the top shooter. If only the top shooter gets awarded, how long will the lower class individuals 'pay the price' to shoot rather than head off to a different spot/game. Then should we bring up Greg Connors direct violation of the rules when he gave a written letter that allowed a KNOWN MASTER classed shooter to 'start over' due the shooter claiming he hadnt shot in 12 years. I saw that as cheating several matches out of an entrance fees while the shooter rec'd the '12 lower scores' as required to down class. Instead with the letter only one match [score] was needed to establish a new class. Happy Easter all.
I know the individual you are talking about and he was quite proud of shooting with a old junk rifle to keep his scores low till the Nationals. The rules say you can go down one class, not start over Greg should have lost his job over that one as he is making the rules as he goes, so what good are the rules.
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Re: classifications

Post by Another Dang 9 »

So let me see if I got this right. I'm NOT the " King of the Sandbaggers"...?!? That's discouraging... =))
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Re: classifications

Post by Ken Green »

AD9. Don't get discouraged. You just have to try harder. =))
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Re: classifications

Post by Tlee »

glen ring wrote:I want to thank you all for making my case that this rule(s) needs clarification from the NRA. Tim Lee , The ball is now in your court.

...(snip)
Actually it's in the silhouette committee's court now. The member I emailed is contacting the other committee members and will let me know what the conclusion will be.

- Tim
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Re: classifications

Post by atomicbrh »

Some items I think we can all agree on.
1. The present rules regarding the requirements to move up in classification should be clarified to the point that they are impossible to misinterpret.
2. The present rules about moving up in classification are too prone to be exploited by cheaters who do everything in their power to stay in a lower classification than their true skill level to win class awards and prizes.
3. The present rules do not require enough matches in a higher classification over a long enough time period to adequately assess a competitor's true skill level. There are too many variables in wind conditions, weather conditions and different range locations to say that 2 matches is enough to move from B to A and that 3 matches is enough to move from A to AA, AA to AAA, AAA to Master. There are parts of the country where wind is a constant score lowering factor and other parts of the country where you can have a full day where the wind does not blow the bullet around at all. The person who shoots all their local matches in a horrible wind is going to be in a lower classification than if he or she lived in a calm wind area and had the same skill level.

I personally would like to see an average calculated over perhaps 12 or more matches with no time period rule. Every 12 matches calculate the person's average score to determine whether they move up in classification or not. This is easy to do in the computer age and it would give a true measure of the person's skill level. There are many people who cannot shoot their class because they had three good scores in a two year period with absolutely perfect conditions.
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Re: classifications

Post by Merlin »

Snip>
atomicbrh wrote: I personally would like to see an average calculated over perhaps 12 or more matches with no time period rule. Every 12 matches calculate the person's average score to determine whether they move up in classification or not. This is easy to do in the computer age and it would give a true measure of the person's skill level. There are many people who cannot shoot their class because they had three good scores in a two year period with absolutely perfect conditions.
< Snip

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