classifications
- Jason
- Uber Master Poster
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
- Location: Snohomish, WA
Re: classifications
I disagree that I am making any assumptions, because I am basing what I am writing on what is written in the rules. It does not say that "previously fired high scores" are used for reclassification. It specifically says that "previously carried forward high scores" will be used. If you can describe any other mechanism of carrying forward high scores defined in the rules other than the specific reference to entering the two highest scores from the last year, please do so. If you cannot, then you cannot make the assumption that any scores ever shot can be carried forward if there is no defined mechanism to do so.
This is one of the few areas where "as written" coincides with both intent and with practical application of a rule. I've already addressed "as written" and it's clear to me that intent is expressed in how the rules are written and classification books are organized. That leaves practical application. A statistical officer (often the match director in anything but the biggest matches) has a limited amount of data available, and thankfully that data is all either already on the page in the classification book or that same statistical officer is entering the data at the end of the match/tournament anyway. Having scores from anytime in a shooter's lifetime basically means that any shooter can shoot one score of a particular classification range and instantly claim to qualify for reclassification upward. That is completely impractical to manage at the scale of any large match, and it is not reasonable to expect a competitor to carry every silhouette classification book that he/she has ever had.
For example, I would love to be in master class in high power like I am in both smallbore classes and all three cowboy rifle classes. Unfortunately, my only two master class scores among my pile of AAA (and some AA) scores were multiple years ago. If I happen to shoot one score that's just barely master class out of multiple years of matches, that doesn't qualify me as a master class high power shooter. If I want to earn that, I need to work harder and practice more.
I'll give another example, and make it similar to yours to help explain why I think the fact that it's a forced reclassification is why it has to be limited to a specific period. Let's say that you are a AA shooter who shoots 10 matches every year and you have done so as a AA shooter for 20 years. Out of those 200 matches, you have shot 120 A scores, 88 AA scores and two AAA scores. Those two AAA scores were several years ago, and there hasn't been anything higher than an A class score in a couple years. The thought of petitioning the NRA to get classified down to A class has crossed your mind. If you happen to shoot one AAA score, do you think you should be forced into AAA class? What if you had actually only shot one AAA score previously and another shooter who wants you out of AA class for the "big prize" championship next month claims that you have previously shot two AAA scores many years ago so you have to be reclassified to AAA? Can you imagine having to deal with that as a match director? How would you know which is telling the truth, or even which one is remembering matches from many years ago correctly?
Regardless of my or your interpretation of intent or practical application, as the rules are written there is only one defined way to carry forward scores fired previous to the current calendar year. That is through entering "the two highest scores from the last year fired in each discipline" on the page with the scores from the current year. I'm pointing out that wording, as it has changed my opinion on what the rules say after reading through it so many times today. It does not say "the two highest scores from the previous calendar year" there. That means that if a competitor goes one or more calendar years without shooting a match in a specific discipline that the scores from the last year in which that competitor shot one or more matches in that discipline are still eligible for consideration for reclassification.
I'm not sure it's actually relevant here, but I do agree that it doesn't matter how it has always been done. "That's how we've always done it" is usually given the response given when the responder doesn't actually know any other reason for doing things a certain way.
This is one of the few areas where "as written" coincides with both intent and with practical application of a rule. I've already addressed "as written" and it's clear to me that intent is expressed in how the rules are written and classification books are organized. That leaves practical application. A statistical officer (often the match director in anything but the biggest matches) has a limited amount of data available, and thankfully that data is all either already on the page in the classification book or that same statistical officer is entering the data at the end of the match/tournament anyway. Having scores from anytime in a shooter's lifetime basically means that any shooter can shoot one score of a particular classification range and instantly claim to qualify for reclassification upward. That is completely impractical to manage at the scale of any large match, and it is not reasonable to expect a competitor to carry every silhouette classification book that he/she has ever had.
For example, I would love to be in master class in high power like I am in both smallbore classes and all three cowboy rifle classes. Unfortunately, my only two master class scores among my pile of AAA (and some AA) scores were multiple years ago. If I happen to shoot one score that's just barely master class out of multiple years of matches, that doesn't qualify me as a master class high power shooter. If I want to earn that, I need to work harder and practice more.
I'll give another example, and make it similar to yours to help explain why I think the fact that it's a forced reclassification is why it has to be limited to a specific period. Let's say that you are a AA shooter who shoots 10 matches every year and you have done so as a AA shooter for 20 years. Out of those 200 matches, you have shot 120 A scores, 88 AA scores and two AAA scores. Those two AAA scores were several years ago, and there hasn't been anything higher than an A class score in a couple years. The thought of petitioning the NRA to get classified down to A class has crossed your mind. If you happen to shoot one AAA score, do you think you should be forced into AAA class? What if you had actually only shot one AAA score previously and another shooter who wants you out of AA class for the "big prize" championship next month claims that you have previously shot two AAA scores many years ago so you have to be reclassified to AAA? Can you imagine having to deal with that as a match director? How would you know which is telling the truth, or even which one is remembering matches from many years ago correctly?
Regardless of my or your interpretation of intent or practical application, as the rules are written there is only one defined way to carry forward scores fired previous to the current calendar year. That is through entering "the two highest scores from the last year fired in each discipline" on the page with the scores from the current year. I'm pointing out that wording, as it has changed my opinion on what the rules say after reading through it so many times today. It does not say "the two highest scores from the previous calendar year" there. That means that if a competitor goes one or more calendar years without shooting a match in a specific discipline that the scores from the last year in which that competitor shot one or more matches in that discipline are still eligible for consideration for reclassification.
I'm not sure it's actually relevant here, but I do agree that it doesn't matter how it has always been done. "That's how we've always done it" is usually given the response given when the responder doesn't actually know any other reason for doing things a certain way.
Last edited by Jason on Wed Apr 12, 2017 4:35 pm, edited 2 times in total.
-
- AA Poster
- Posts: 467
- Joined: Sat Jul 09, 2011 8:52 pm
Re: classifications
Gosh, Al.cslcAl wrote:Great, now you can call the silhouette department and ask two people the same question; and get no answer.
~Jeanne Ring
It's always something.
It's always something.
- BrentD
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm
Re: classifications
I have. I'm not. Simple.dustinflint wrote:If you've shot three Master scores, you're Master.BrentD wrote:Simply not true. Or I'd be a master in BPCR irons and I'm not.
Dustin
- BrentD
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm
Re: classifications
Ask Dustin, apparently he knows everything.Jerry G wrote:Someone please tell me how the match director at any shoot knows what scores someone has shot if they aren't on the book?
I am surprised that anyone would think that all master scores, regardless of how can be used to reclassify. I have never heard this from anyone before, at any match, by any match director, including Connor. This has never been a confusing rule to any match director other than whether the reclassification should happen at the match in which the third qualifying score is shot and how it should apply if it happens in a 2-day aggregate match. But, in my experience, the sunset of old master scores has never been in doubt. Until here and now.
- dustinflint
- Expert Master Poster
- Posts: 1519
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
- Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Re: classifications
You are, you just don't understand the rule so every time you enter a match in AAA you are cheating, just unknowingly. After reading this, if you enter a match in AAA you will be knowingly cheating.BrentD wrote:I have. I'm not. Simple.dustinflint wrote:If you've shot three Master scores, you're Master.BrentD wrote:Simply not true. Or I'd be a master in BPCR irons and I'm not.
Dustin
Dustin
-
- Distinguished Master Poster w/Palms
- Posts: 2324
- Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 3:06 pm
Re: classifications
FWIW, if you shoot random master scores, you have the ability to shoot master scores but don't for the lack of effort. You are only kidding yourself/sandbagging.
When I started I had it explained to me that it was 3 in a lifetime. Period. I don't see the problem and while the rule may seem vague it seems to be like arguing the meaning of "is" or "there"....
YMMV, IMHO, Not pointing fingers... agree the rule maybe should be clarified but don't understand why it would need to be after being in effect for so long.... but there again people try "re-clarifying" constitutional amendments that have been worded the same forever....
When I started I had it explained to me that it was 3 in a lifetime. Period. I don't see the problem and while the rule may seem vague it seems to be like arguing the meaning of "is" or "there"....
YMMV, IMHO, Not pointing fingers... agree the rule maybe should be clarified but don't understand why it would need to be after being in effect for so long.... but there again people try "re-clarifying" constitutional amendments that have been worded the same forever....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
- dustinflint
- Expert Master Poster
- Posts: 1519
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
- Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Re: classifications
Jason, I agree with you that the way the classification books are structured make it almost impossible for a match director to properly enforce the classification rule. The classification books should simply ask for the two previous high scores and it'd be easy. Someone screwed it up somewhere. Also, it's up to the competitor to enter in the correct class; it's on the honor system. There is no way for the match director to police it.
I personally don't care one bit what the rule is; but in this case the rule is very clear and is written in one sentence, and it doesn't contain a time limitation.
Classification under the silhouette rules is never about "earning" upward classification; it's about forcing upward classification whenever a competitor shoots 3 scores in that class.
Okay lets talk about something else.
Dustin
I personally don't care one bit what the rule is; but in this case the rule is very clear and is written in one sentence, and it doesn't contain a time limitation.
Just so you know, a shooter can voluntarily move up in classification at any time without shooting any score in that classification (see Rule 19.8 ) as long as he/she elects to do so before each tournament so as not to violate rule 19.16.1.Jason wrote: Having scores from anytime in a shooter's lifetime basically means that any shooter can shoot one score of a particular classification range and instantly claim to qualify for reclassification upward.
Classification under the silhouette rules is never about "earning" upward classification; it's about forcing upward classification whenever a competitor shoots 3 scores in that class.
Okay lets talk about something else.
Dustin
- BrentD
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm
Re: classifications
You are so full of s--t. I'm beginning to catch on to you though. Arrogance is your strong suit no doubt.dustinflint wrote:You are, you just don't understand the rule so every time you enter a match in AAA you are cheating, just unknowingly. After reading this, if you enter a match in AAA you will be knowingly cheating.BrentD wrote:I have. I'm not. Simple.dustinflint wrote:
If you've shot three Master scores, you're Master.
Dustin
Dustin
- dustinflint
- Expert Master Poster
- Posts: 1519
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
- Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Re: classifications
I see how it is. You can say this about me:BrentD wrote:You are so full of s--t. I'm beginning to catch on to you though. Arrogance is your strong suit no doubt.
but it's not okay for me to take a little jab at you.BrentD wrote:Ask Dustin, apparently he knows everything.
Dustin
- Jason
- Uber Master Poster
- Posts: 3002
- Joined: Tue Feb 28, 2006 7:36 pm
- Location: Snohomish, WA
Re: classifications
Requesting to compete in a higher classification in a specific match or tournament is not the same as actually earning that classification and being classified as such as a competitor in future matches or tournaments. I don't think someone screwed up. I think it's clearly written, and bias based on what each shooter was told when they started is being used to state how it is written instead of how it is actually written.
-
- A Poster
- Posts: 152
- Joined: Mon Feb 01, 2016 7:25 pm
Re: classifications
Hope Shootin' season starts soon
I shot NRA High Power for 20 years. In that discipline you had to fire 240 shots in the next higher class to move up.
But you did not move up until THE NRA sent you a new card, showing your new class, they managed all the classifications.
Putting that (determining classifications) on match directors and competitors seems very silly.
chuck
I shot NRA High Power for 20 years. In that discipline you had to fire 240 shots in the next higher class to move up.
But you did not move up until THE NRA sent you a new card, showing your new class, they managed all the classifications.
Putting that (determining classifications) on match directors and competitors seems very silly.
chuck
- BrentD
- AAA Poster
- Posts: 597
- Joined: Fri Jul 26, 2013 5:48 pm
Re: classifications
whatever you say Dustin. You are always right.
But be careful calling me a cheat to my face. The keyboard keeps you safe.
But be careful calling me a cheat to my face. The keyboard keeps you safe.
- dustinflint
- Expert Master Poster
- Posts: 1519
- Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
- Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana
Re: classifications
Whatever. I'm done.
-
- Master Poster
- Posts: 1084
- Joined: Wed Oct 25, 2006 3:04 pm
Re: classifications
I just want the rules cleared up so I can be a true master in CLA.
It's like having a fight with Tito Ortiz in the Octagon. If he trips walking into the cage and knocks himself out, I would get awarded the No Contest.. I would not like that. I would want the win fair and square.
I want the master classification fair and square. Calling myself a master isn't good enough if I didn't earn it.
Now you boys and girls have a nice night, drink a beer to cool down and Dustin Flint...go to ancestry.com and do some searching...the way you talk makes me think you're related to me somehow.
Now let's change the topic to something more entertaining than this. Who's had a colonoscopy ?
It's like having a fight with Tito Ortiz in the Octagon. If he trips walking into the cage and knocks himself out, I would get awarded the No Contest.. I would not like that. I would want the win fair and square.
I want the master classification fair and square. Calling myself a master isn't good enough if I didn't earn it.
Now you boys and girls have a nice night, drink a beer to cool down and Dustin Flint...go to ancestry.com and do some searching...the way you talk makes me think you're related to me somehow.
Now let's change the topic to something more entertaining than this. Who's had a colonoscopy ?
Just Be Nice
-
- A Poster
- Posts: 197
- Joined: Sat Aug 12, 2006 9:46 pm
Re: classifications
I have to interject some humor my friend the late Mickey Wagner once told me. " You know Mark you shoot three good scores and they hold it against you for the rest of your life."
Now back on topic I couldn't wait to get to Master class. No sandbagging there. And my interpretation of the rule is it's three and move up. No matter what the time between them. What's the harm in that interpretation? And Glen Ring, you can safely call yourself a Master. No one will mind. Mark Varner
Now back on topic I couldn't wait to get to Master class. No sandbagging there. And my interpretation of the rule is it's three and move up. No matter what the time between them. What's the harm in that interpretation? And Glen Ring, you can safely call yourself a Master. No one will mind. Mark Varner