Update on Nationals Numbers

[Snake]

If sb hunter rifle goes back to off the shelf then it is only fair that lever action goes back to off the shelf. Really original blade and slot factory sights. Six pound, no trigger job triggers. No peep sights. No fiber optic sights. Would you like to go back to that?

Actually I referred to HP hunter rifle as I don't see that many purpose built custom SB hunter rifles. And as far as using the buck horn sights on lever gun that's what I used and what most new shooters use. In point of fact a whole lot of us hill billy deer hunters use a Williams peep. Besides lever gun is a de minimus game anyway...the 'custom' creep hasn't taken hold there like in HP hunter. But to answer your query even though the linkage isn't material....one doesn't require the other as the paradigms are dissimilar....I wouldn't object

[cedestech]

If sb hunter rifle goes back to off the shelf then it is only fair that lever action goes back to off the shelf. Really original blade and slot factory sights. Six pound, no trigger job triggers. No peep sights. No fiber optic sights. Would you like to go back to that?

That is what my wife shoots... she dislikes peep sights.... her SBLA and PCLA rifles are both box stock other than the triggers have been cleaned up. She has a range book in her shooting box that she keeps notes for sight elevation and picture.

She moved up to AAA last month.

[DavidABQ]

Ask me how I know this from the last 19 years........

I am curious, so how do you know this?

The first year there, I knew no one. I hadn't shot in a competition like this before. To start off I managed to shoot a hole in the roof at the BPCR chicken line and made an ass out of myself at the Mid Range Prone match. Everyone had a laugh and yet everyone was understanding and gave me all kinds of advice. They are now some of my best friends. We still laugh about it. Come and shoot with us and take some pressure off of me.

WOW!

[BrentD]

Peeps (tang sights) were totally original. Where did you get the idea they were not?

Frankly, I think they should make a separate scope class for lever.

[kevinbear]

Secondly, the Hunting rifle division would benefit by returning the definition back to a off the shelf rifle and even limiting the scope power to say no more than 12x....you know just like a real hunting rig.

I totally agree and would love to see that happen.

I would agree about scope magnification but with several manufacturers making rifles that are significantly better for silhouette than nearly all others and almost no different than custom rifles requiring hunting rifles to be "off the shelf" would have little impact other than pissing a whole bunch of people off.

Anschutz 1712's with a smatering of Kimbers and Coopers would still rule. Trying to write rules that help people out who have innacurate rifles with bad triggers makes no sense.

[Snake]

I'm sorry but off the shelf HP rifles are not what we have now. We have purpose built gamer tools that vaguely resemble a hunting rifle. The new shooter might actually consider competition but for the current level of competitive hunter rifles.
When I started in 1980 a hunter rifle was an off the shelf with a 2lb trigger and had top be loaded from the magazine. I shot my first silhouette match with my Model 70 in 270 and a 3 x 9 scope. When I went to the 1984 Nationals in Raton we had 11 relays. Some wags cut the barrel on 700 varminters to make weight and turned the trigger down to 2lbs......you had to have a stock trigger.
The point is that purpose built HP hunter rifles defeat the concept of a hunting rifle and contributes to the intimidation factor keeping our sport from growing.
Virtually all new commercial hunting rifles have adjustable triggers, and some are superb. We need to focus on encouraging new competitors. You have a tough road in that endeavor when you try to sell expensive purpose built equipment to someone who has an aversion to competition because of the perception that competitions are a closed society.

BTW any piss off of folk would be of a group that's diminishing in number and on its way to extinction

[thauglor]

You can easily buy an off the shelf rifle and be competitive in the lower classes, which is where 99% of the people just starting silhouette will be competing anyway.

[Snake]

I might point out that David Tubb used a Model 7 Remington in both divisions and won the Nationals in both divisions.......so much for the baseless theory that factory rifles are inaccurate with bad triggers

[atomicbrh]

Based on the content of Tubb' s books, videos, articles and interviews plus the nature of aftermarket shooting products he has invented and sells, we can conclude that the Remington 7 that he shot in silhouette matches was far from a factory rifle. It may have appeared to look like a unaltered rifle.

Remember Tubb invented the "chin" gun.
Do you think a man like that is not going to do everything possible within the rules?

[Snake]

Within the then rules.....Tubb's Model 7 was off the shelf bedded and the trigger (a factory trigger), was adjusted and cleaned up, it had a factory barrel and chamber. And it was not purpose built like the current rules permit. No one suggested that such clean ups should be prohibited. Tubb's rifle had those permitted changes....just like my deer rifle. You are comparing oranges to apples. I say go back to that set of rules but restrict scope power and get hunter rifle back to real hunting rifles used by the average joe. I don't see the validity of your criticism.....especially the chin gun comment. I agree Tubb worked the standard rifle rules....and quite frankly in regard to my position so what? The chin gun bull was stopped...as it should have been. I'm trying to get the entry level rifle back to being an entry rifle and bring more folks into the game not to protect the what's perceived as a competitor only clique....Let's work to grow the game. I want that deer hunter to come and shoot with what he's got. Hopefully we sink the hook and he builds a standard gun.....more gentlemen, is better....we need new blood

[cedestech]

Ya'll do know this is a 2018 nationals entry numbers thread....

GREAT topic, should have it's own thread.

FWIW I do kinda like the idea of a "stock" hunter gun class and then a modified/standard rifle.

Most people shoot hunter in both now because there isn't enough difference to justify the cost for most people...

[atomicbrh]

Snake, criticism was not my intent with my reply.

[kevinbear]

I might point out that David Tubb used a Model 7 Remington in both divisions and won the Nationals in both divisions.......so much for the baseless theory that factory rifles are inaccurate with bad triggers

I was referring to smallbore guns, sorry about not clarifying that. I've watched many a casual shooter show up at smallbore for the first time and quickly realize their 10-22 with a Chinese scope was not up to the task, highpower is an entirely different matter. I've shot lots of matches with factory guns 7-08's, 260's and done just fine, certainly couldn't blame misses on the gun.

BTW I believe I was at the nationals in Raton in 1984 and used a custom rifle, a 700 in 6.5x308 {pre-260}, there were plenty of custom guns then.

[Snake]

The hunter gun rule in 1984 was a factory rifle with a factory contour barrel, loaded via magazine, with a safety, a 2lb factory trigger. Bedding was permitted. The barrel could be replaced with a factory contour and as usual 6mm or larger. factory stock or replica factory stock. As I stated some took a heavy barrel 700 varminter shortened the barrel turned the factory trigger down to 2lbs and drilled the interior of the butt stock to make weight. Please try to see that restoring that old rule and getting the HP hunter closer to a hunting rifle just makes it less intimidating for a prospective new shooter. Our sport isn't easy but its a rifleman/ hunters game and there are all sorts of hunting rifles sold ,so people still hunt and we want them. Once they get the bug ( after they knock over their first ram for example) they'll migrate to the standard rifle. I'm trying to reduce the myth that 'I can't compete against all them fancy guns with my poor old 308'

Consider this manufacturers have literally abandoned us...Leupold quit making silhouette style scopes, no powder makers send prizes, etc ...yet they send all sorts of goodies to f-class, PRS, and the like….because those markets are growing and we're not. It's simply marketing....so let's try to grow our sport

[Hotrodrockets]

Only one from Tennessee! Come on folks don't leave me hanging.
I'm only there for comic relief and the TACOS!