Update on Nationals Numbers

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psteiger
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by psteiger »

so are the red chips made from red corn?
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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Hey y’all; I was not in favor of the way hunter rifle transitioned to what it is today. I did however wind up owning a couple though. Ten years ago I was very competitive and like they say; “if you can’t beat ‘em join ‘em.’

NOW; after all these years as viable hunter rifles, changing the rules to something else would not be good for the sport. There is nothing in the rules that says you can’t use your factory sporter deer rifle. That’s the smart thing to do. Start with what you’ve got, get your feet wet then move up to better equipment. By all means though start with a good scope.

As I have gotten older I find a sporter weight Rifle is easier for me to shoot, and I shoot about the same scores. I guess I have gone full circle, but I’m still shooting.

Dustin, on the deer hunter aspect. Back in the late ‘70’s when Silhouette started here in Pa; it was deer hunters and varmint hunters who got things started. The numbers of those folks were quite high and match attendance numbers were staggering. It was nothing to have 80 to 100 shooters at a monthly match. There was no hunter rifle then and all those folks were shooting one gun. A 700 Rem Varmint Special was the predominant Rifle and most folks had one. When hunter started we all had a deer rifle and just needed a target scope.

Today is truly a different age. The numbers of young people hunting is way down. Most of that generation have gravitated to AR style guns. That’s what they see on TV and they want to be the next Rambo and do the run and gun thing. I call them dirt shooters. They come to the range jump out of the vehicle go to the firing line throw in a 30 rd. mag. and just blaze away. They don’t usually even put up targets, just dirt flying and make noise.

I don’t get it. When I go shooting I like to get the feeling that I actually accomplished something. I may have had a good match score, or a good practice session, or maybe I shoot some good groups working up loads. In my mind I usually had a productive time. If I just want to make noise, I’ll turn up my guitar till it pisses off my wife.

Oh well; that’s my two cents. See y’all in Raton, and don’t forget about my show at the Colfax on July 22. 3-7pm.

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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by lijeboy »

Great arguments for both sides of the issue, and also some great culinary advice.

I have to remark, though, to Dustin that I've seen shorter briefs to the Federal Circuit on patent infringement lawsuits. :D

If anyone is interested in the original intent of this post, the numbers are now:

BPCR-S - 85
BPCR - 62

HP - 39
HPHR - 36

SB - 79
SBHR - 78

LA - 153
PCLA - 158
SBLA - 162
~Jeanne Ring

It's always something.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by 44 mag »

Thank you for the updates Jeanne.

My thoughts on the rules. We all know that numbers are down in SB and HP. Changing the current rules for hunter gun now would kill the sport. I have to agree that the rules have gotten a bit out of control for hunter rifles. I would like to see a new division for sb and hp. Make a true factory gun class. If a shooter choses to buy a new rifle to shoot this class great if not they can still shoot the same guns they have been shooting for years.

To make things real simple get rid of the“Hunter Rifle and Standard Rifle” name and just call it heavy rifle and light rifle. This way it will not upset people who feel hunter rifle should be a stock factory gun.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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44 mag wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 2:43 pm... I would like to see a new division for sb and hp. Make a true factory gun class. If a shooter choses to buy a new rifle to shoot this class great if not they can still shoot the same guns they have been shooting for years.
But then every state or regional match would have to add the third class of rifle, and if you don't shoot that rifle you loose any aggregate score to everyone that does, so you're back to having to buy a third rifle anyway.

@-)
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Snake »

Renaming the current hunter division to 'light rifle' does nothing to encourage a prospect and in all probability simply highlights that his factory gun has little chance of being competitive. And telling joe deer hunter that its not the gun but the shooter are empty words to a new competitor who's already as reluctant as a teenager about to ask the pretty girl for a date. Moreover changing the rule back to the off the shelf can't kill off what we've inadvertently put in need of resuscitation now. Face it a lot of guys use one rifle for both classes because their rifles are just about identical except for a 2 lb trigger. Folks we have low turn outs because we are becoming a closed society with highly specialized equipment and our game isn't easy and its public.....anyone spectating can see how well or poorly you do....our targets don't go to a scoring room and you get a large element of anonymity ( you can crow later or slink out depending). Once again ask yourself why have the manufacturers literally abandoned us.....because we have become a purpose BUILT equipment game, there's no market for them and they go where the money is. That's acceptable for open rifle but come on.....encourage that virgin with his deer gun to come play.....then he's ours. Furthermore you can't shine the problem off to the AR...when there are every manner of reasonably priced hunting rifles being sold and used to say nothing of the proliferation of bolt guns used for other high power games. Our WAS the only high power game where a person with a real hunting rifle had a chance.
If we moved SB around the country like we used to we would cultivate the sport because like politics all competition is local.

Note red chips are made from republican corn and blue chips are made from democrat corn =))
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

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dustinflint wrote: Sun Jun 24, 2018 11:26 am Bob,

Can you please explain how modifying the rules to require everyone to buy two rifles and two scopes is more appealing to a new shooter than rules that allow everyone to compete with one rifle and one scope? If the thought of having to build a rifle to compete "intimidates" new shooters I don't understand how having to build a rifle for standard class then having to buy an additional rifle and scope for Hunter makes this better.

If the thought is that the rule should be changed because of the initial impression that people might get from seeing custom-built guns then I think we should consider a couple of things:

1. What percentage of new shooters are actually intimidated by these rifles? I know as many prospective shooters that are interested in the game for the opportunity to build cool new rifles as I do those who might shy away from the cost of a custom rifle. Not everyone is scared to put money into a rifle.

2. Does it make sense to force everyone that already shoots to go out and buy new hunter rifles and new 12-power scopes just because of the possibility of drawing in a few new shooters that might be intimidated by the custom guns? Not only that, but then everyone that doesn't quit is going to want to build a new standard gun as well. If I have to shoot some off-the-shelf rifle with a 12x scope in Hunter, I want every advantage I can get on my standard gun, so my current custom hunter gun is useless. I would think that we will need a lot of deer hunters to start shooting to make up for the massive loss of competitors when they get news of that gut-punch.


In my experience, competitive shooters are drawn to this game, not deer hunters . If a club wants to appeal to deer hunters, why don't they just allow people to shoot the course from a setting that replicates deer hunting? Maybe they can sit on a bucket or in an old office chair and shoot the course from a rest with a deer rifle?
Snake wrote: Sat Jun 23, 2018 9:29 am If you go to youtube and search 'benchrest silhouette' you will be amazed at the busy matches with entrants shooting little metal crows, coyotes, squirrels, and even mice from the bench'''''aaargh!
I think that this is a great way to increase participation at club matches. Why not put smaller targets out that are challenging to shoot off the bench and invite benchrest shooters and F class shooters and deer hunters to come out and shoot from a rest with the same time delays as the standing shooters. There is no reason they can't jump right into a relay and shoot on a bench next to a standing shooter. If this gets them out to the matches and they get interested in shooting standing, then great - we have gained a new shooter that might go to a championship match. If not, they are still coming to the club matches and still paying the entry fee and still having a great time and still counting towards participation. I believe that this is the best way to get new shooters to come out. (this is the suggestion that I've made to you regarding letting benchrest or F class shooters shoot the silhouette matches at 3/8 scale targets in St. Louis)

I don't see changing rules and adding rifles and adding expense as a way to draw in more shooters. I think that we need to make our matches a lot of fun for everyone, and I think that means letting people shoot whatever they bring and knock down targets from any position they like at club matches. I love the farm at Pinterest silhouette ideas but I think they need to be shot along with the traditional silhouette matches, not as separate games.

Dustin
Good post Dustin, interestingly the club I belong to was having difficulty attracting shooters{2008} so the match director started letting those who wanted to shoot from the bench do so and attendence exploded. Human nature being what it is people started building custom benchrest rigs and shooting off of cradles, they also set another 10 targets out at 150yards{bears} then a couple of years later more at 200 yards because they had stepped up to plate and were able to shoot clean 40x40's.

Finally last year he decided to throw the brakes on whole thing after 10 years by putting some restrictions on the guns and rests but was met with much resistance and howls of protest over changing the rules.
The funny part is these were many of the same bunch that showed up with their 10-22's initially when I was the match director prior to 2008 and bitched because they were being outgunned.
Fast forward to 2018 and the concern of the match director is that people showing up for the first time are intimidated by the equipment of these guys, they don't seem nearly as concerned about equipment and ammunition costs for newbies as they did 10 years ago, the circle is complete.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Snake »

I'm sorry but the logic of reinventing the game to make it 'more fun' is somehow preferable to trying to get the guy with his hunting rig to come shoot is a stretch. They 'more fun'games appeal to equipment that people already have that are not custom purpose made rigs. So protecting ones interest by sending people off to something 'more fun' or trying to convince them that building a 'cool' purpose made rifle is somehow growing this game….well that's just a bit over the edge. Furthermore the belief that buying another rifle that's off the shelf is burdensome....really? I'd bet there 's very damn few of us that have one rifle and certainly fewer that don't already own a hunting rifle. I will point to our diminished numbers and the few...very few new entrants in the HP game....and now tell me how the current definitions helped anything except the seasoned veteran. Our game is fun just not new guy friendly....that was one of thoughts behind the original hunter rifle division. I pointed out earlier the 'know your limits match' where people brought what the had....its wasn't the targets that drew tem ...it was that they could use their hunting rifles....which I repeat...dominated the field. I don't understand why there's resistance to going back to the old rule which takes nothing away from the seasoned veteran...except I suppose his current comfort level
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by sdwooster »

I usually don't voice my opinion, but this is a interesting topic. It is hard to get new people shooting, because its not a easy sport we do. Smallbore is not to bad, but Hp is pretty hard at times. With muzzle blast from the guy next to you, and the recoil. As for the factory rifle, we had a person shooting a CZ with factory barrel and a trigger kit put in it. They where shooting good AAA and some master scores. But the rifle was a good fit for the person and if it fits you good you will also shoot it good. The factorys rifles are built for a average of people, don't work for most people. I think the reason most people like to shoot silhouette is to see the targets to fall. And the more they fall the better we like it. So, maybe we need to make targets bigger, that way we get more and are more happy with our shooting. Like the cowboy targets, they are pretty big and we should be able to hit more. Notice I said we should be able to hit more!!!! Hitting more targets gets people more interested. We had 23 shooters at our match Saturday. A pretty good turnout, we where missing probable 5 shooters. Highpower we usually have around the same. Hope too see everybody at Raton.

Steve
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by Snake »

Steve, consider that most new factory rifles will shoot a minute and a half with factory ammo right off the shelf.....for example the new Franchi bolt gun (list $609) with a glass stock and adjustable trigger (2 -6 lbs) ...22" barreled 30-06 even averaged 1.75 with factory ammo. I used a 700 in 250 Savage for years, then time and obligations took their toll. There are great factory rifles and I'll grant you they can't compete with a purpose built rifle; but the factory gun is the starting point. Let's cultivate it

As far as making the targets bigger...consider IMSHA long range where if you don't shoot 40 you don't get into a massive shoot off; not exactly a popular game. It isn't the target size...its getting the new guy to try. It is axiomatic that its the shooter much more than the equipment but the idea is to get more new shooters...once they start more likely than not they'll progress
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by sdwooster »

A person's ego is one of the problems. They take a look at the course and think this should be easy. Then they shoot the match and find out that it isn't that easy. And shooting beside a guy that just shot a 39 really makes it worse. Over the 30 years I have been doing this I have seen a lot of that. I have seen guys with a $2800 custom built standard rifle shoot B scores. And he enjoyed it. But I guess this is why we have a classification system. If your equipment only allows you to shoot A scores, then that's who you compete with. And if you think you want to compete with the big dogs and you feel a custom hunter is what you need to do so, it's your choice. But practice would probably be a better choice. At our range we get some new people stopping by to see what we are doing., They are impressed that we stand up to shoot, they say that I can't do that. But actually they probably never have tried it. I have explained that you don't need fancy equipment but a good scope would help. Some people come and try it, some stay and some don't. Trying to get more people shooting now days is not easy. With the culture we have now, guns are evil we are fighting a losing battle. All we can do is keep trying.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by kevinbear »

I believe a little history lesson is in order to shed some light for some and remind everyone else how we got to where were at today in hunting rifle class.
What started the custom rifle craze for hunter gun was two different things, first was people changing internal parts on factory rifles improving performance such as custom triggers{that looked like factory triggers} and spring kits, lightweight firing pins and pillar bedding . No doubt these improvements made for better scores as well as the folks that did such things were truly interested in investing time as well as money into being better at the game so they did much better than the casual deer hunter. Factory stocks were weighted and lightened internally to the specific shooters needs of the individual, these guns became quite personalized.
When the barrels wore out on these very personalized guns people didn't want to part with them and buy a new gun so off to the gunsmith they went, naturally the competitor/hunter wants the most accurate barrel he can get so he opts for the match grade. He doesn't tell his gunsmith that he wants his new barrel to be factory gun accurate because he doesn't want to have an advantage over guys with factory rifles, absolutely not anyone on the planet would ever will say that. All he will say is match the factory taper as close as possible and make it shoot like a benchrest rifle if you can.

So in the early 90's Remington as well as other companies start putting plastic stocks on guns, factory guns, I think Lee 6 made the first ones for Remington, they were cheap but they caught on and became accepted by the general public, soon McMillian and others started making replacements for all the wood stocked guns out there because people wanted them, silhouette shooters wanted them.
So along comes the guy who is pretty successful in life and done well financially, he hunts but would like to shoot year round and become a better shot, he has a friend who has a very "personalized" hunting rifle for hunter class silhouette. He's not that interested in the nuts and bolts of buying a factory rifle and going through the process, he just wants a gun to shoot, a good one.

Enter the gunsmith, he is brought into the picture to assemble a rifle for this gentleman of means.

I think everyone can put the pieces together from here.
And btw I see nothing wrong with this history or scenario, I can't see anywhere in the process where it would be reasonable to erect a barrier to somehow level the playing field for newbies.
Last edited by kevinbear on Mon Jun 25, 2018 5:47 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by thauglor »

Snake, there is already B class hunter rifle. Everything you are saying will fit right into B class hunter rifle no problem and be competitive, no need for a new class or new rules. Getting people to shoot standing is the challenge.
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by cedestech »

How many banks of animals are there at Raton for 1/2 scale? (how many relays at 160ish people)

:)

BTW: no one has addressed the yellow corn chips....
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Re: Update on Nationals Numbers

Post by atomicbrh »

Back to the secondary thread drift:
The typical deer hunter rifle in our area is a 7 mm Magnum or 300 Win Mag with a pencil thin barrel and scope and rings costing less than $200.
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