Classification Changes

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cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

Post by cedestech »

Doodaddy wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:31 pm
I love devil's advocate. Be as argumentative as you want!

Thanks for recognizing it... Much to my wife's chagrin I do it as a mater of course rather than on purpose or maliciously. If you have an opinion that is fine. If it is just because that is fine. If it drastically effects a bunch of people (not just me) and the reason isn't abundantly clear I want to know the reason. It's not OK to put people out for your own limited benefit...
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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jbolt wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 3:37 pm This is currently posted on the NRA website.

Approved Tournament...
I compete in NRA F-Class and the match director and competitors have a lot more paperwork than we do with silhouette. I hope silhouette continues to be exempt.
Last edited by Sporty on Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:35 pm, edited 7 times in total.
-Charlie (Lee) Meli
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cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

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dustinflint wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:10 pm His struggles are a great example of some of the reasons that we have trouble getting new folks.

Dustin
Do you really think electronic/digital/online access (how ever you want to label it) would be the panacea to all silhouettes ills?

I agree it is stuck in the stone age and it is an issue but don't see it as pressing.
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

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FWIW and IMHO... one of the BIGGEST problems with silhouette currently is getting people who USED to shoot silhouette back. One of the main complaints that I have heard (not necessarily named but more or less alluded to) is the NRA just doesn't give a rats butt about silhouette.

Not to be one to poop on the NRA but I have to agree. If you want to expand the sport, I believe the first order of business is for the NRA to regain the faith of the people who shoot it. Is it their job? Hard to say. They have obviously become much more of a political organization in recent years than a shooting sports organization. Or at least that is the outward appearance that I personally see. When you have my name on a data base because I am a member and you call me MULTIPLE times a year using some lame phone solicitation company using boogie man/straw man arguments trying to get me to donate above and beyond my dues AND send me twice that many mailers it tends to sour my view. Why don't you use those resources to encourage firearm use for defense and sport.

I do believe it would be nice to have online access to things but really, the NRA doesn't care if you shot a score with in your handicap bracket. They only need to know when you have shot over. I like the meal card idea but I believe it would be more expensive then the generic book you buy once a year for $14 and customize with your info, handicaps and scores through out the year.

The people participating in this thread are a tiny bit of the people who shoot and the people lurking aren't much bigger. Before you burden match directors with more responsibility or cost you probably should get wider input. I can promise you if you make it a PITA to deal with the NRA or match reporting many match directors with simply not get matches approved and or will just quit holding matches. That isn't exactly the way to grow anything....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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jbmarshtx wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 12:12 pm Finally I get access to steel chickens and get told on about post #5 how to live my life even though my backpack with my book, shooting glasses and muffs was stolen in truck break in.
Sorry you took it as life advise but if the shoe fits, lace it up and walk around. I'm really not being mean though just reading words on a forum makes it sound that way. I am assuming you are in TX. If you are in Houston come by the match I run (lever action at BRI or the one Tim Lee runs in Austin) and I'll let you borrow my equipment and spot for you. I feel for you and hate a thief but the loss of a score book is not a good reason to ditch a system that works and has for a long time, no matter how antiquated it is. PM me if you'd like to take me up on the offer, for realz. :-bd
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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cedestech wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 4:03 pm
Doodaddy wrote: Tue Sep 18, 2018 1:31 pm
I love devil's advocate. Be as argumentative as you want!

Thanks for recognizing it... Much to my wife's chagrin I do it as a mater of course rather than on purpose or maliciously. If you have an opinion that is fine. If it is just because that is fine. If it drastically effects a bunch of people (not just me) and the reason isn't abundantly clear I want to know the reason. It's not OK to put people out for your own limited benefit...
A healthy discourse is really needed for any topic of change in my opinion.

Your wife just needs some perspective I think. Does she never spend any time with Pat? I figured she'd know just how much worse it could be if she had........
I am NOT Danny Hatch. Image
cedestech
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Re: Classification Changes

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Doodaddy wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 6:24 am Does she never spend any time with Pat? I figured she'd know just how much worse it could be if she had........
They are thick as thieves... LOL... :)
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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I hope the books go away because of two reasons.
  • They are a barrier to entry to new shooters. A new shooter can't fully participate, as in being eligible for class awards or match winner, without purchasing an NRA scorebook. That extra $13 matters, especially if that match day is in the second half of the calendar year so the book may not get much usage before it's no longer useful. We charge $10 per match, which means that the cost to be "official" is more than the cost of the match. We have a good portion of our shooters who never buy a scorebook, even if they shoot many matches. That means that the NRA gets nothing from those shooters, including no information. Not being eligible to win any class makes a shooter not feel part of the match, which lessens the chances of shooting future matches.
  • They are a hassle for match directors and competitors. For me, as a match director, they require extra effort at the worst time, when trying to finish up a match. I already have the scores on a scoresheet. Having to try to add them on two separate pages among many in lots of different books when I'm trying to do lots of other things at the same time is frustrating. I would much rather enter them on an NRA website later when I'm not in the middle of trying to calculate match and class winners, present those awards, thank new shooters for coming out and encourage them to come back, take down and put away all of the targets and targets stands, fill out match report and count money to turn in to the club, close and lock up the facilities/gates, etc.
I get at least 20 emails for every phone call regarding silhouette. The last two calls that I got were from people who couldn't find out specific information about the matches online like they had tried first. I haven't gotten an actual mail, other than from the NRA when they mail the packets, in years. Competitors lose their books, or they forget to pick them up at one match and then don't have them for future matches. If a shooter has worked really hard to improve scores to try to move up up classifications,that book getting lost means that those scores are gone. If you have never forgotten where you put something or forgot to take something important with you when you were leaving, then you can legitimately throw out the "keep up with your stuff" comment. Otherwise, it's BS.

Let me state this plainly. The world of paper records being the way that records are stored is gone, and that's a good thing. The days of paper being used for signing up for matches are gone, and that's a good thing. Most current and prospective new shooters will be looking for information online, and the best chance of getting them involved having them able to see the matches and getting them signed up for a match there. They want to be able to see their scores with others online. They want to see future matches that might be a fun road trip. That's how you grow a sport now. I've had new shooters ask me how long it will be before scores show up online, like they do with the other shooting sports they compete in, only to have them laugh at how backwards silhouette is when I tell them that the little paper books are the permanent record system. The last one of these shooters easily qualified to shoot as a senior, so it's not just younger shooters who think this way.

For anyone who complains about the NRA not making things better in silhouette and then advocates for not changing what you claim is not broken, please know that you are effectively getting yourself moved into the "that person's going to complain no matter what" list so no one will listen to you or respond to you. Don't bother complaining even more when that happens. It's just noise at that point, and a source of frustration for you and everyone who has to listen to or read it.

If you want to be heard, bring up new ideas to make the system at getting new shooters engaged, followed by actually doing something to help. Be a match director. Make a YouTube video explaining how a match flows and how much fun it is. Post pictures on Facebook or general shooting forums describing silhouette. Make flyers and put them up at various shooting ranges and gun/sporting goods stores. The key here is actually contributing more effort trying to make things better than you do complaining about things not being better.
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Re: Classification Changes

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Jason wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 am Let me state this plainly. The world of paper records being the way that records are stored is gone, and that's a good thing. The days of paper being used for signing up for matches are gone, and that's a good thing. Most current and prospective new shooters will be looking for information online, and the best chance of getting them involved having them able to see the matches and getting them signed up for a match there. They want to be able to see their scores with others online. They want to see future matches that might be a fun road trip. That's how you grow a sport now. I've had new shooters ask me how long it will be before scores show up online, like they do with the other shooting sports they compete in, only to have them laugh at how backwards silhouette is when I tell them that the little paper books are the permanent record system. The last one of these shooters easily qualified to shoot as a senior, so it's not just younger shooters who think this way.
You are 100% correct, Jason. It's interesting that you mentioned what I quoted above because the top question I get from people who are not familiar with silhouette is always about where to go online to see scores and learn about the game and all the matches. We are worlds behind everybody when it comes to keeping up technologically. If the game is going to grow, this has to be corrected.

Dustin
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Re: Classification Changes

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Jason wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 am They are a barrier to entry to new shooters. A new shooter can't fully participate, as in being eligible for class awards or match winner, without purchasing an NRA scorebook. That extra $13 matters, especially if that match day is in the second half of the calendar year so the book may not get much usage before it's no longer useful.
Exsqueaze me?

A: I don't mandate a score book unless you have come out and shot with us for a while, ESPECIALLY if the year is half over.... Why in the hell would you? That is poor judgement on you.

B: If $13 is going to make or brake someone for shooting.... they need to rethink their priorities in life.

C: It cost me $14 a year for a book to shoot at any match, as many as I want all year long.... NRA membership isn't required to participate. I will bet money (not a years salary but more then $10) that any system that the NRA has to regulate, and make no bones, there will be fee's attached, will be more then $14 a year if you shoot 3+ matches a month, every month, all year....

BTW, keep up with your stuff is a good life lesson, your parents taught it to you I'd assume....
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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Jason wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 8:40 am

For anyone who complains about the NRA not making things better in silhouette and then advocates for not changing what you claim is not broken, please know that you are effectively getting yourself moved into the "that person's going to complain no matter what" list so no one will listen to you or respond to you. Don't bother complaining even more when that happens. It's just noise at that point, and a source of frustration for you and everyone who has to listen to or read it.


I'll let you retype that where it may make sense... I'm no expert but I think that is a triple negative....

I have no where said I wouldn't use a electronic system. I have said that if it makes things a bigger PITA or more expensive it will have the EXACT opposite effect you, I and most people that enjoy this sport would like it to do.

I have said if the NRA has to come up with a personalized widgit for every shooter to carry around to every match that is "official" and has a reporting mechanism to keep it current it will cost more than $14 a year.

We are on the same side, but I choose to work with what I have instead of pontificating what should be done and what people should do... Guess that makes

BTW... please point out where I have "complained" about anything other than the NRA's perceived antipathy towards silhouette?

;)
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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My comments weren't only aimed at you, but feel free to take them that way if they apply. If you think that didn't make sense, it may be because you weren't the person that I had in mind. I suspect he will know who he is, and he's passionate about silhouette so hope will direct that passion into making the sport better.

My examples are directly taken from my current role as match director for my club's smallbore rifle silhouette matches. Using an example of someone who shoots three or more silhouette matches a month is exactly the mindset that will prevent understanding the need to recruit new shooters who have never shot a silhouette match. Using my club as a specific example, the new shooter can shoot the match for $10 but isn't really part of the match and can't compete for class or match wins without paying an extra $13 to fire an "official" score. The decision a new shooter considers isn't regarding how the price may be allocated across a full year of shooting multiple matches per month. The decision is whether to spend more than the match fee on a little paper book that's part of an outdated system that other shooting sports left behind long ago. We don't ever mandate a scorebook to shoot the match, but we do mandate one to be able to have a classification and be able to compete for class winner or match winner. IF we mandated a scorebook to be allowed to shoot the match at all, we'd lose several of our shooters who only shoot local matches and think the scorebook system is stupid.

Please keep your "good life lesson" and "being the devil's advocate" comments out of this. Unless you have never lost something or accidentally left something somewhere, that comment about keeping up with stuff is still pure BS. Are you a match director so that you have to deal with the books during a match, especially a bigger match? Or do you just drop the book on the counter and then pick it up later when the work in it is done?
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Re: Classification Changes

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Jason wrote: Wed Sep 19, 2018 11:59 am Are you a match director so that you have to deal with the books during a match, especially a bigger match? Or do you just drop the book on the counter and then pick it up later when the work in it is done?
Match director (you obviously missed where I offered for the guy who we keep punting around his stolen book as a definitive reason for electronic scoring to come to my match in Houston or meet me at a match I attend monthly in Austin and I will hook him up with CLA shooting to see if he likes it), assist any match director who's match I am at (because I know it's a PITA job) and don't complain about how a match director is running a match because... it's their match, I can choose to participate or not.

As far as your complaints about getting stuff done at the match... delegate... most people LOVE being helpful. Ask if they will help put the scores in the books or what ever mundane tasks need to be accomplished while you do it.

If you will read my comments earlier I also stated that the people participating on THIS thread on THIS forum are a tiny sliver of people who participate in the sport as a whole and the lurkers are that many more. Just because you'd rather have something change doesn't mean EVERYONE would like it. You have to think of the whole. THAT is how you loose attendance and loose participation from other match directors... something you claim and I believe you wish for the opposite to occur.

I will participate and encourage in any capacity I have, just because our opinions are different doesn't validate either. You'd prefer to do everything later. I prefer to get it all done at the range. The end of the day the NRA competition department will do what they will do. I hope they seek input, but if not I'll play by their rules and run my match accordingly.

Funny you mention people who throw their books up and walk off. My wife and I actually have quit going to a couple matches for that reason. They are mainly IMSHA matches so....

I seem to remember a thread like this a couple years ago on the same subject and people expressing the same opinions.
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Re: Classification Changes

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Suggestions:

1. Communicate - This forum helps with that regard. I've had to reread posts to glean exactly what was being said vs. what I thought was said on first reading.
2. Depersonalize differences in opinion - This may be difficult but not impossible.
3. Push your ideas and respect others - Ties in with #2
4. There are no stupid ideas. - Let creative juices flow without fear of being bullied or chastised. We can pick from the best ideas.
5. Depersonalize differences in opinion - Can't be said too many times.
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Re: Classification Changes

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At the risk of taking on some shrapnel I'll add my two cents.

As someone who has been helping with the scoring and record-keeping for some of the matches I attend, I would guess that...

(a) once an effective and efficient system is put in place, and...
(b) that system is familiar to the match director who needs to upload scores...

... that the match scores would be logged/uploaded in the same amount of time as it takes to write everything out in each participant's book.

I personally have been keeping a spreadsheet of my smallbore scores since I started shooting three and a half years ago and it takes me longer to wake up my computer and pull up the spreadsheet than it does to log my scores from a match. Logging 10 or 20 participant's scores would take less than 10 minutes (again, assuming the system is designed for efficiency and not a PITA).

I also think the cost of setting up and administering such a system would be more than paid for by the savings of not having to print and send out the books as well as administering the data entry of anything that gets logged now, such as national records, grand slam entries, etc.

Each participant gets an ID that follows him/her to any match, each club running matches get's a log-in to upload scores. Grand slams entries would be logged automatically, classifications would be adjusted automatically, so much could be done to make the system more efficient.

Doesn't seem like a big deal to me.
:-B
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