HOLYCOW Dustin

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HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Sat Oct 27, 2018 3:48 pm

Did I just see new records? Tell us more....and congrats :D

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Sat Oct 27, 2018 4:30 pm

Those record scores were fired at the Texas and Oklahoma matches this past September. A state record score of 52 x 60 was posted at the Texas match and a very nice tie score record of 38 x 40 posted at Oklahoma. Both scores were fired with the hunting rifle.

The combined ram X count for those two events is astonishing. Of a possible 50 ram targets between the two events he knocked down 42 of them. :-bd That translates to an 84% success rate. :shock: Dustin, was this fine shooting done with your 6mmBR? You recently told us you were committed to a year long experiment using the 6BR round exclusively for HP silhouette.

How is it possible for such a small cartridge to be that reliable on heavy 500 meter rams? You must have found the Holy Grail of component combinations combined with your superb marksmanship skills to accomplish this great feat. ^:)^ What is your secret to high ram scores with the 6BR? Did you in fact use your 6BR at those matches or did you go back to using the 6.5 x 47 Lapua round?


https://competitions.nra.org/results-an ... l-records/

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Ken Green » Sat Oct 27, 2018 6:16 pm

Dustin is shooting his 6BR for his HP matches. He does have the skill to place the shots where he wants and where his spotter tells him too. He has one of the best spotter's (Jerry Tureau) that I know of in silhouette. I think it is a combination of his skill and the knowledge that Jerry has as a spotter. This combination might just be the Holy Grail of high power silhouette ^:)^ :D

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:20 pm

I have to agree with you, Ken. I have shot shoulder to shoulder with that team since they became regular faces at the St. Louis HP regional match. Also at the last two Nationals.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Sat Oct 27, 2018 8:29 pm

I'd love to have the load data. O'Malley and I used a 600 yd bench rest gun in 6 BR with 105 ELD Hornady, shooting from a rest and loaded to primer flattening pressure and hitting rams in various spots. We could only topple them with hits in the hind leg. Even horn hits were 20%, Our rams were set square on their pads and we ran a sander over the pads to remove rust and debris, It didn't seem to matter which way they faced ....we turned then to avoid any bowed bodies. Were Dustin's bullets Bergers or ?

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Sat Oct 27, 2018 9:17 pm

Thank you all very much! I did commit to shooting the 6mmBR all of 2018 and I shot that rifle exclusively all year - I ended my shooting season last weekend at the Louisiana HP State Championship in Zwolle.

My opinion is the 6BR experiment was a nearly complete success. I believe that the key to winning HP and SB silhouette championships is to win the short lines. Almost all of the time the winner is the shooter that hits the most chickens and pigs. The strategy with this rifle is to score well on chickens, pigs and turkeys and take my chances on the rams. That is exactly how it worked out this year. The 6BR is a whole different animal from anything else when it comes to minimal recoil and I think its even a little less noisy, which is nice. I have never hit as many 10s in-a-row as I did this year including hitting 10 turkeys SEVEN times. When the rams are falling, it's GREAT!

BUT...

Sometimes the rams don't fall. I had problems knocking down rams in Missouri and in Zwolle - and it was marginal in Raton, but only on certain banks.

The 52/60 & 38/40 national records in Texas and Tulsa were great but there were several other notable things that I learned/noticed this year that have convinced me to shoot this caliber in at least one rifle from now on:

1. Scoring results cant be ignored - the top two spots in the HP Grand Aggregate National Championship in Raton were Cathy and me, both shooting 6BRs. I did well in regional and state HP championships and shot the best I ever have at our club matches (36/40, 31/40, 35/40, 36/40, 35/40, 37/40, 36/40, 37/40)

2. We never really know what the rams are going to do at different ranges - the condition of the targets/rails and the conditions outside can make the rams harder or easier to knock over. A great example is last Sunday in Zwolle. The rams were falling fine on Saturday but it rained all day Saturday and even though the target setters were trying to make it work, by Sunday the mud was making the rams very difficult. Several were rang with 7-08 and 6.5mm rifles. I rang 5 (I think) and only got 7 of 15 rams - but I got 13 chickens, 15 pigs and 13 turkeys and won the Sunday match. I think it's a better idea choose the caliber based 75% of the match rather than 25% - especially since sometimes the rams are trouble with any caliber.

3. The cumulative effect of recoil is a killer. I've noticed with my 6.5x47 that it gets harder and harder to make perfect or very good shots the further along I get in a 10-shot string. It's MUCH worse on a 15-shot string, which is why 60-shot matches are so difficult in highpower. By the time I get beat up for 10 or 12 shots those last few shots are brutal. It's even worse at the end of two days shooting a match or three days shooting the nationals. I have zero problems with that with the 6BR. In fact, in Missouri this year I ended with 20 of 20 chickens; in Tulsa it was 10 of 10 chickens and in Zwolle it was 15 of 15 pigs. I've never been able to finish as strong on these matches with the bigger calibers.

4. There are good ram bullet choices available. I've been shooting Berger 115 VLDs and 108 VLDs. They are great bullets. I think the 6mm bullet selection is much better now than in years past.

5. I think these little 6mm calibers are the future. As more of the top shooters move to 6mm, the competition will have the same disadvantages on rams as I do. However, great shooters shooting bigger calibers like Mike Estes & David Bonner can really make me pay for shooting a baby caliber!

6. This is the most fun rifle I've ever shot - and having fun is what it's all about!

I think everyone should get one!

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Jason » Sun Oct 28, 2018 9:55 pm

Great info and great shooting, Dustin. Do you think it would be useful to try a cartridge with just a bit more capacity to push the 115s a bit harder for the rams, or is the 6BR case already giving as much velocity as the bullets can handle on the rams? I see that the Berger 115s show nearly the same BC for the target or hunting bullets. Did you test both on the rams to see if one is more effective or can handle higher impact velocities? Why shoot the 108s for CPT? Is it just for the higher BC? I have seen lots of 6.5mm shooters using 95s for CPT, so I'm a bit surprised that you're using the 108s if the goal is minimal recoil.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:22 am

Jason,

I shoot 95gr VLD for C,P & T. I meant that I have shot 108s and 115s at rams.

As you said, the goal is MINIMAL recoil (and I don't like to reshape brass) so I am going to shoot the softest cartridge I can (6BR) if I'm going to take the penalty of using the 6mm bullet. If I was okay with a little more recoil, I would get it through a bigger 6.5 bullet instead of using the 6mm bullet with a bigger case. That said, lots of shooters are having success with the 6mm Dasher. I want as many chickens, pigs and turkeys as possible and every little bit of recoil matters (in my opinion) so I like the 6BR.

As for velocity with the 115s, I have never chronographed my load. I don't use a chronograph. When I test loads, I group several loads and see what shoots the best; then for rams I start with the best shooting loads and shoot them at a really heavy free-standing ram from the bench and see if they will take him down. The 108 VLDs did a pretty good job, the 115s were better.

I'm not sure if more velocity is the answer. I have the 115s pushed about as much as I'm comfortable pressure-wise. I don't think they're going super fast because the BR case can only do so much with that big bullet. Like I said, it works okay but it is VERY dependent on the targets, the rails, and the conditions. I am often shooting them in the rump or in the head to get them to fall. That's just the way it is.

Considering the expense of maintaining a HP range and the vastly varying condition of the targets and rails from range to range, and the fact that clubs basically use what they can get to make targets, I am very much for a rule similar to the lever action rule 4.2 that allows the rams to be set lighter. In fact I'm for getting rid of the rule requiring certain foot size and any rule that makes the ram harder to knock over. I think it would be good for the game to make smaller calibers work well on rams. However, this is just my opinion and I know that many folks don't agree with me and I think it's reasonable to think either way (please don't anyone attack me - I'm not looking for a debate on this!)

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by atomicbrh » Mon Oct 29, 2018 11:46 am

Here is an article about 6mmBR barrel life. The article does not take into account the increase in the number of useful shots of barrel life by shooting the 95 grain VLD's at lower velocity for 3/4 of the "on the clock" shots. I wonder how that increases barrel life for the silhouette competitor.
http://www.6mmbr.com/barrelcost.html

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Mon Oct 29, 2018 4:57 pm

I just arrived home from the range. Was practicing with a .260 and 7-08 on my animal swingers. Don't be jealous....you'll be retired someday. :wink:

I will not debate you, Dustin. But I will add my two cents to those eyebrow raising comments you made. The original game of highpower rifle silhouette was invented to use high power hunting rifles which most people already owned for big game hunting. The animals are scaled to size for hunting rifles and constructed to withstand the impacts of high power rifle bullets. The 6mmBR along with several similar size and power cartridges are not highpower rifle rounds. Their sole intent of development was putting holes in paper targets accurately at distance in a heavy bench rifle. They can be called centerfire rifle rounds, not high power rifle rounds.

The HP silhouette game is in it's purest form and should not be changed in any way. Yes, it is difficult to shoot but that is what makes it great. Noise and recoil are part of it. We are still striving to shoot the perfect score all these decades. A few including yourself are on the fringes of stardom to be the first to shoot that perfect game in HP silhouette. I have said this before, that person must have their picture on the cover of every gun magazine along with a feature cover story.

Your suggestion of modifying the ram foot pad or allowing the light setting of rams to accommodate small centerfire cartridges would gut the spirit of the game. It is supposed to be hard. It was designed to be hard. If your definition of light setting is having the pad hanging over past the rail right at balance point, that is illegal as the rule is written. It should not be changed to accommodate in your words, a "baby cartridge".
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:19 am, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Mon Oct 29, 2018 5:38 pm

I agree with McAlice. Quite frankly since I started this game in 1982 the challenge of the game is and always has been to knock down the ram. The Mexicans, New Zealanders, South Africans, Fins, and Aussies continue seeking the answer to that problem. Light setting the rams makes for a different game, and solves the challenge by eliminating that challenge. If one seeks accuracy only then consider f-class or bench rest. The TCU and the 6.5 and 7mm PPC are light recoiling and do not need light setting targets...they reflect ingenuity to address the ram problem without changing the 'ram problem to suit the caliber.
As an aside, the f-class and 600 yard bench folks have eschewed the 6 BR for the 6 Dasher (a blown out BR), apparently the extra steam helps at long range without appreciable recoil in their 17 and 22lb rifles...that cartridge may help bring the 6mm up to the task....but I note even the 243 and 6mm Remington had their 'ram' issues. But then I have never been recoil sensitive and find trying to shoot AND run the match fatiguing, not the recoil...and I'm not an elite competitor either.... :D

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Mon Oct 29, 2018 7:11 pm

Those are all very good and fair points (although I think that you might be two of the few shooters that actually LIKE recoil #-o )

My problem with tradition and leaving things the way they are in this case is that it gives an advantage to bigger shooters, namely grown men. I think that needing to shoot a bigger caliber to take down rams is a deterrent to female shooters, younger shooters and shooters who are smaller or might have an injury that prevents them from shooting bigger calibers. I'd rather have these shooters participate at the cost of some tradition.

Of the highpower championship matches I attended this year, we had 2 women shooters at the Arkansas regional, 2 in Missouri, none in Texas, 2 in Tulsa, none in Zwolle, and only 4 women at nationals. NOT A SINGLE JUNIOR SHOOTER at ANY of those matches! Those numbers are a problem! I don't know if smaller calibers will help, but it certainly cant hurt.

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by RickF » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:06 pm

That's a great point Dustin.

I have been torn on the issue. I shoot 6BR and 260.

On one hand I really dislike soft-setting rams so the medium 6s will take them over, then breaking long-standing records. It's that apples and oranges thing again.

But as you state, not everyone can handle 140-150 grain bullets for rams.

Tough call.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Mon Oct 29, 2018 8:19 pm

It's just something to think about - as has been pointed out, taking down the rams is part of the game. Whether it is an important part of the game is the question IF it is hurting participation (which it may not be, there are certainly other factors). I still think the small calibers are worth the trade-off.

Now I have to go give my rifle a pep talk since McAlice said it's not a highpower rifle. It already has low self-esteem since it's smaller than all the other guns...

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by thauglor » Mon Oct 29, 2018 10:30 pm

The Rams are fine. There are not even 5 women out there waiting to shoot highpower but don't cuz a 6br doesn't take down Rams effectively. Don't change the sport for supposedly increasing participation because that won't do it. Soft setting the Rams isn't going to raise participation.

You prefer a light recoiling rifle and you might lose out on Rams, that's the call you made. Others want to take it down more effectively so they suffer more on CPT, that's their call. They are not out there calling for the Rams to be made heavier to make their caliber of choice more suited to the game.

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