HOLYCOW Dustin

General BS, Match Results, Upcoming Events and all around Gossip...
Snake
AAA Poster
AAA Poster
Posts: 789
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 2010 12:37 pm
Location: St. Louis, Missouri

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 am

I take issue with the comment that there's a bias favoring grown men. The 'proof' offered was the low number of women involved in various events. I suggest that one should examine the number of women and juniors in bench rest (lots of small light recoiling rifles}, f- class (223s are their own class), and across the course like Palma. You'll find the same lack of female and junior participation. Even pistol competition like IDPA ans USPSA are not teeming with juniors and women......about the same ratio as cited for silhouette. In the Missouri regional one lady was 19 and shot a 7 TCU and was a real challenger, the other lady used a Mauser in 260.....last year it was a 7 x 57....the new caliber lowered her score. The caliber doesn't keep women and juniors away. With the exception of skeet, shooting competition just doesn't appeal to women like it does with men. Juniors seem to show up at smallbore better.....that may be more a function of cost and what their parents are willing to finance----besides the video world is their thing. I suggest that telling women that they need accommodation implying that they are weaker will get you in a heap of trouble.....

Bob Mc Alice
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1772
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:54 am
Location: Colorado

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:45 am

It is my prediction that the first ever 40 x 40 fired in highpower rifle silhouette will have used a cartridge propelling .264 inch diameter projectiles. Which ammunition company responsible for the development work on this round will be represented? Will it be Lapua, Hornady or Remington? Of course I am talking about the 6.5 x 47 Lapua, 6.5 Creedmoor and the .260 Remington rounds. They all have the energy needed to get the rams on the ground with good bullet placement. They produce what I consider to be easy to manage moderate recoil. Which International shooter will take that historic record title?

Dustin, abandon the 6BR round and get serious with your 6.5 x 47 Lapua again. Hornady is way too crazy famous already with that CM round. :p The record set with the .260 Remington would be well deserved. And you can't rule out the 6.5 x 55 either, a great silhouette round.

The various sevens are out, too few using them now. Although, there is a PA shooter or two doing very well with my favorite 7.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Tue Oct 30, 2018 1:11 pm, edited 1 time in total.

cedestech
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1467
Joined: Sun May 08, 2011 3:06 pm
Location: Houston, Texas

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by cedestech » Tue Oct 30, 2018 10:01 am

Snake wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 5:29 am
I suggest that telling women that they need accommodation implying that they are weaker will get you in a heap of trouble.....
I was talking to a veteran shooter this weekend about this exact subject. Women actually have a physical advantage if you get a rifle that fits them. Never understood giving them their own special award but what ev... :)
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

lone ringer
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:33 am
Location: CA

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by lone ringer » Tue Oct 30, 2018 12:27 pm

When HP silhouette had its first national championships the few women competing used 308's.

The following was copied from a reply I made to a post regarding the 7mm BR in 2012
I remember reading about Karen Mones in 1977 when shooting outside the competition because her Remington 700 in 308 was not allowed to be used because the stock measurements of her rifle resembled a "target" rifle. She out shot the competition and would had won the HP Nationals that year had she been allowed to compete with the rifle she had. Marguerite Everheart won the HP Nationals with a 308 in 1981, 1983 and 1985 with a Remington 700 Varmint in 308 with a Rem factory stock and barrel, the only thing she changed was the trigger, she had a Canjar LP and a Weaver T16. Those were the years when we only shot one rifle class (hunter started in 1985) and we had no Chin Guns.


Since then there has been many other women champions that have used calibers other than the 6mm BR and I never heard one of them say that they felt at a disadvantage because men could handle the recoil better than them. I believe this talk about calibers is a non issue and rams have always keep us honest when planning our loads for rams. I remember shooting 308's and 7-08's when HP hunting rifle had to done using factory loads and it was hard for me to get more than 50% of the targets with a rifle that was 9 lbs. Then there was a time when we used the 243 and 6mm Remington for a few years and the scores went up for me but as soon as Remington came up with the .260 Remington cartridge and rifle a lot of shooters immediately went for it.

Rifle silhouette shooters were never as particular as handgun silhouette shooters as far as paying attention to weight of rams, size of their pads and rails or stands because for a lot of them shooting a 40X40 is a formality to be included on shoot offs at the end of the match or Championship. Early on they were using calibers similar to ours (308, 7mm IHMSA and many other rifle calibers) just to be able to knock the rams down. Most handgun silhouette ranges made the necessary adjustments to their targets and stands so that just about any caliber (mouse gun cartridges included) could knock the rams down. With the low attendance at HP silhouette rifle matches now a days I seriously doubt that any rifle silhouette range would be willing to make the same to accommodate the few that want to use low recoiling rifles/calibers.

Ken Green
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 323
Joined: Sat Sep 03, 2016 5:49 pm
Location: Springfield, Louisiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Ken Green » Tue Oct 30, 2018 6:16 pm

I do have to agree with Dustin on one point and that is that the key to winning HP and SB silhouette championships is to win the short lines.

I disagree in setting the rams so a "baby cartridge" will take the rams down. I do agree in setting the rams correctly on the pads.

With the rams set like they are supposed to be set, that is what makes high power the challenge that it is. High power is simply a hard game to shoot and recoil is simply a part of it.

If the main point is to shoot a soft almost no recoil rifle for HP silhouette with a high animal count, then let everybody get a .223 rifle and shoot at full size paper silhouette targets at the proper distance. Shoot your 10 shots for each target, collect the targets and count the holes in the targets to determine the winner. This could be a whole new silhouette game :)) I might be on to something here. A good reason to buy a .223 :lol:

If the point is to shoot high power silhouette and to knock the full size high power steel rams down, then being enough rifle and big enough bullet to get the job done. If you still want to shoot a "baby caliber" then shoot it, have fun and accept the outcome.

Last weekend at Zwolle, I rang a ram with a solid high shoulder hit with a Nosler 160 grain partition and another shooter rang 4 rams with the Nosler 160 grain Accubond. My spotter was very surprised when that ram did not go down. If I would have hit as many rams as the other 7-08 shooter, I might have rung more rams. Even though, I only shoot at Zwolle once a year, I am still thinking about looking at the new Sierra 165 game changer or either the Berger 168 grain bullet. I know it will probably be a touch more recoil but I am willing to accept it, if I don't rang any rams.

I would love for my 7-08 to have the recoil of the 6br., BUT I know that is not going to happen :(( Do I like the recoil, NO not at all. But I do know that the 7-08 has recoil, so I just shoulder the rifle and deal with it when I pull the trigger.

I would love to see more ladies shooting high power silhouette. I know of one female silhouette shooter, that told me, she would not at Zwolle this year because she did not have a High Power rifle yet. Plus she could not get the time off from work.

Hawkeye7br
B Poster
B Poster
Posts: 38
Joined: Wed Aug 10, 2016 8:14 pm
Location: Indiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Hawkeye7br » Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm

Congrats to Dustin on some outstanding shooting!!

I primarily shoot handgun silo. Not trying to hijack this thread, but since it was brought up......can someone tell me why nobody shoots the 7br? Is ram knockdown power the only reason? or refer me to the proper thread....Thanks....

Again, great shooting!!!

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Tue Oct 30, 2018 8:14 pm

Hawkeye7br wrote:
Tue Oct 30, 2018 7:44 pm
Congrats to Dustin on some outstanding shooting!!

I primarily shoot handgun silo. Not trying to hijack this thread, but since it was brought up......can someone tell me why nobody shoots the 7br? Is ram knockdown power the only reason? or refer me to the proper thread....Thanks....

Again, great shooting!!!
Thank you very much!

My biggest issue with any 7mm is wind drift vs. recoil. You just can't get as good a BC in those fat 7mm bullets at light weights as you can with the 6.5mm or 6mm cartridges. So then you take more and more of a recoil penalty as you move up in BC (weight).

As far as the 7BR goes, I'm sure it would work just fine for high-power silhouette. I don't know anyone off the top of my head that shoots one. I have a friend that shoots a 7TCU and she likes it. It took down Rams in Missouri which has tough rams. I'd think that the 7BR would be even more efficient than the 7 TCU and probably work just as well or better.

Dustin

Bob Mc Alice
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1772
Joined: Mon Sep 11, 2006 6:54 am
Location: Colorado

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Tue Oct 30, 2018 9:02 pm

This thread is magnetic. Hey...are you calling my bullets fat? :shock: There are a dedicated few that still rely on the good 'ol 7BR for good reason...it works well on rams and light recoil on the close targets with fat lighter bullets. We have a AAA shooter that uses one and can shoot his class most of the time. Lost rams is not the problem. He sends Sierra 175 gr.GameKings in the 2100 FPS range to 500 meters very effectively. They go over slow and easy every time.

Dustin said: "It took down Rams in Missouri which has tough rams."

I have found that the rams there generally fall with my average hits. (all over the thing :D ) It is the range where I have witnessed by far the most ringers per event. I chalk that up to them slightly farther out or breezes from the back coming into play. I rarely leave one standing there. They do have a dozen animals affectionately known as the Clydesdale's. They were cut slightly larger than standard. Maybe a little heavier, too. They get spread out evenly so all will get to fire on them over the weekend.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:41 pm, edited 1 time in total.

dscak1
A Poster
A Poster
Posts: 124
Joined: Mon Feb 14, 2011 10:37 am
Location: Eagle River, AK/Maricopa,, AZ

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dscak1 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 10:49 am

First and foremost I want to congradulate Dustin on his fine shooting. Your skills are truly astonishing. I know you put in the work to get there, but nevertheless, you set a very high bar. Regarding using the 6br, I believe this is a personal choice. As has been said before, recoil is a part of high power that all must live with. Making a choice to shoot a caliber that provides better results on chickens, pigs and turkeys but less than optimum for rams has certainly proven to frequently be successful as demonstrated by these records, as well as Dustin and Cathy's success at the Nationals. However, it is just that, a choice. I do not support changing the rules simply to accomodate the smaller caliber. In pistol cartidge silhouette many of us, myself and John Mullins included, have made the choice to shoot primarily 22 mags. People do this for a variety of reasons, some because of the similarity of firearms between their smallbore and pistol cartridge rifles, some to avoid reloading, but I'm sure few to lessen recoil. Still, making this choice, one has to accept the possibility of ringing some rams, even when set with the foot flush with the back of the rail/pad as outlined in the rules. In the same vein, I don't advocate changing the rules for how pistol cartridge rams are set to accomodate my choice to shoot a 22 mag in lieu of a 32 20, 25 20, 32 H&R, 38/357, etc. We all have the opportunity to make choices based on what we believe provides us with the best opportunity for success and I'm certainly glad we have that opportunity. That choice and the rules as currently written make the successes enjoyed by our top shooters all the more challenging. Dan

User avatar
Grizz61
AA Poster
AA Poster
Posts: 250
Joined: Tue Jun 03, 2014 12:31 am

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Grizz61 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 11:59 am

Well said DSCAK1 and Guru.

I have been trying figure out exactly how to voice in my opinion in this tread.

I fully agree it is choice of the shooter and should be a choice to shooter to shoot a light gun and risk taking Rams. I in no way would agree to changing the rules because few want to make that choice. There are old rules that were modified to make the game we now shoot the way we shoot it. Any reduction of those rules would create a different game entirely, one of which I could not support in my heart.

As far as I m concerned a shooter could shoot a 223, a lucky shot might take a Ram once and while, and a 30 will differently get you on the leader board in most monthly matches. But the that that you made the choice does not mean that I should change my Rams to were the 223 will take the Rams and my 260/7-08/308 will damage them, or so light that a hit on the Stand from those guns knock them off anyway.

How would you feel losing to a 308 that hit the stand and knock over a ram, because it set light enough that 6br could take it? Plus if you set Rams that light the slightest wind will be knocking them over constantly. Ask the Lever Shooters that shoot at Raton, it a major problem somedays.
Grizz

Let's shoot some STEEL!!

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:40 pm

Thank you very much for the kind words, Dan.

Just to clear something up that I've seen written several times here. I didn't say what I said about the Rams in an effort to get anyone to accommodate my caliber choice. I have other calibers available that work great on Rams and I shoot them just fine. I can always shoot a bigger gun but it's just not as much fun as the smaller gun.

As I said originally, my opinion is that accommodating smaller calibers could persuade shooters that currently shoot smallbore to get into the highpower game, thus increasing participation.

It is interesting that you brought up pistol cartridge lever action as that seems to me to be the only silhouette game where we want the Rams to be hard to knock over. Obviously, that particular game was designed to eliminate small calibers, namely 22LR, since the targets are exactly the same size as lever action smallbore targets and the only difference is the weight. It's obvious with that game that it was developed to keep the .22LR from working.

The other games seem to be designed for the target to fall when hit. Certainly smallbore and small bore lever action are - why have a ram that a .22 won't knock over if we can't use anything but .22? The air rifle targets are easily taken with pellets.

Then there is Centerfire lever action. It seems to me if the highpower games are designed to require large calibers to knock over the Rams, there would no be no specific rule for light-setting the lever action Rams. But, there is Rule 4.2 which states it's purpose (so that reasonable calibers can take the ram) and allows the Rams to be set off the back of the rail so they go down easier. If needing to shoot a bigger caliber with more recoil to take down the rams is a good thing, why are we avoiding that in the lever action game?

So the question is whether we want the HP game to have rams that are difficult to take down. If so, that's fine, but it may dissuade some shooters from participating.

Dustin

lone ringer
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1008
Joined: Tue May 30, 2006 9:33 am
Location: CA

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by lone ringer » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:30 pm

Dustin, lever action rifle silhouette followed the rules of handgun silhouette as far as times, distances, target sizes, etc. We did not invent the game we just followed and adopted their rules. No effort was made to change the game so that .22s could not compete in PC and as a matter of fact I used to shoot my .22 at PC targets before Lapua discontinued making their Scoremax 48gr bullets. With those bullets I rang very few rams.
.22s are still allowed in PC if you are willing to ring a lot of targets using SV ammo. You will not ring as many using HV ammo.

In regards to the 4.2 rule Target Setting (Cowboy Lever Action Only) is only a suggestion for how to set the rams, giving samples how to accomplish it.
It has the word SHOULD instead of Must. There are several places where I compete that do not follow that 4.2 rule suggestion and place the rams full foot on the stand. By the way the handgun shooters have been doing what is suggested in rule 4.2 for a good 40 years and I do not think that it would be a bad idea that we followed suit and asked the rule makers that 4.2 rule should include HP rifle silhouette but only as it is now, merely as a suggestion for those silhouette rifle ranges willing to do the necessary work to ensure that full size rams will be knocked down with reasonable loads.

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:53 pm

lone ringer wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:30 pm
By the way the handgun shooters have been doing what is suggested in rule 4.2 for a good 40 years and I do not think that it would be a bad idea that we followed suit and asked the rule makers that 4.2 rule should include HP rifle silhouette but only as it is now, merely as a suggestion for those silhouette rifle ranges willing to do the necessary work to ensure that full size rams will be knocked down with reasonable loads.
Tony, what you said there is ALL that I'm suggesting. That and possibly do away with rules that REQUIRE the rams to be set a certain way or to have certain size feet. Leave it to the match directors - if they know that they have difficult rams let them be set so that they will fall easier.

A great example is the Coolidge range in Texas. They use what they have to make targets and some of their rams are a HALF-INCH thick! I could barely pick one up! They wouldn't go down with .308s in practice! They had to be set light for anything to take them reliably. Also some of the 50 year-old rams in Zwolle that are so warped and have been welded so many times that they're 10 pounds heavier than normal - they have to be set light or they're not falling. Two weeks ago one was hit FIVE times before it fell.

I just think that we should leave it to the folks running the match to set them reasonably instead of having a rule that assumes perfect targets and perfect rails force them to be set full-foot all the time.

Dustin

User avatar
DavidABQ
Expert Master Poster
Expert Master Poster
Posts: 1590
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2009 9:33 pm
Location: Rio Rancho, NM

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by DavidABQ » Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:58 pm

That is some great shooting Dustin! Congratulations.

User avatar
dustinflint
Master Poster
Master Poster
Posts: 1316
Joined: Tue May 17, 2011 12:13 pm
Location: Baton Rouge, Louisiana

Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Wed Oct 31, 2018 2:08 pm

DavidABQ wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 1:58 pm
That is some great shooting Dustin! Congratulations.
Thank you David!

Dustin

Post Reply