HOLYCOW Dustin

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Bob Mc Alice
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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:16 pm

It is my opinion and probably others,too, that all shots fired for score or records must be fired on as uniform as possible regulation size targets set per current rules. The ram examples you cite are extreme for weight. They should be scrapped out for swinger practice targets. New regulation replacement rams should be purchased. How many shooters got screwed out of an X due to bad targets? A potential ram long run record could be terminated at the half inch ram. We have no such garbage targets at our club. It is impossible for several targets setters to set them identical each time to compensate for gross "out of spec" target conditions. Not trying to stir up things here, but I would protest those targets.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:36 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Another Dang 9 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:40 pm

Bob, I have been trying to get information from the NRA about targets for some time. They use to have a handbook with all the correct specks on target size, material and foot size. I know the rule books cover this but not as in-depth as the handbook did. I don't think there has been any change,to the full size targets but the 1/2 scale targets have especially the pigs.
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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Another Dang 9 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 3:59 pm

Not to start an argument but as to this subject of recoil...
At the 2010 nationals in Ridgway I watched a tiny little girl shoot a 6.5 lapua (then still a new chambering) as a master shooter who is now on team lapua. I was impressed not just to her skill but the fact she could shoot that round with out developing a flinch like I do. As I get older (58 now) my flinch is worse as are my eyes but I will keep shooting till one or the other makes me stop.
Again I'm not trying to start an argument but I don't think changing the targets is a solution to this. For the record I was against the soft setting the CLA targets too.
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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:16 pm

That tiny little girl shoots a 6mm now that she chooses her caliber.

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Wed Oct 31, 2018 4:21 pm

So she is back from the short hiatus to kick our as.......compete with us? :D :ymapplause:

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dscak1 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 5:49 pm

dustinflint wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 12:40 pm

Then there is Centerfire lever action. It seems to me if the highpower games are designed to require large calibers to knock over the Rams, there would no be no specific rule for light-setting the lever action Rams. But, there is Rule 4.2 which states it's purpose (so that reasonable calibers can take the ram) and allows the Rams to be set off the back of the rail so they go down easier. If needing to shoot a bigger caliber with more recoil to take down the rams is a good thing, why are we avoiding that in the lever action game?

I haven't been shooting lever action silhouette since its inception, so I am unable to comment the how/why of the rules. However, I would guess Tony's reply that we followed handgun's example explains at least a portion of why they are this way. With respect to Rule 4.2, I would suggest that since over 75% of all lever action rifles ever produced (excluding pistol cartridge calibers) were chambered in 30 30, the rule was instituted to permit the most prevalent caliber to reliably take rams. As we are limited by the rules to rimmed cartridges there is a limit to what is possible, unlike high power where we have a substantial number of options. For what it's worth, I lose the occasional ram using 150 g sierras in my 30 30 and, for that reason, keep a box of 170s with me for those occasions/locations when/where the 150s just don't work.

As regards pistol cartridge, I believe the rams are heavier not to prevent 22 lr from knocking them down but to prevent target damage by pistol cartridge calibers, as all of the pistol cartridge animals are heavier than their 22 lr counterparts.

Again, I'm not against using a smaller caliber, and I realize you have other calibers you can use. I'm just stating we make a choice for whatever reason(s) and accept the consequences of that choice. You have indicated it's more fun to shoot and that you believe the lessened recoil has been helpful to you. I believe you will do well regardless of the caliber you choose to shoot. I don't believe many shooters stop shooting high power or potential shooters don't start because of the number of rams they may ring. I think the real problem is that it is a difficult sport. I frequently suggest to new shooters to try lever gun, believing if we can get them interested they may move on to smallbore and eventually high power. I have a good friend here in Phoenix who is also shooting a 6br due to medical considerations. He has informed me that his results thus far are 11 rams for 11 hits with 107s and 4 for 8 with 115 Dtecs. He is/was more than willing to give up the some rams for being able to continue to shoot and I for one am certainly glad he has that option. By the way he previously shot a 7 br and has advised me that the difference in recoil is noticable. I have a titanium plate holding my right collar bone together (non-union break which refused to heal) and am very recoil sensitive. I have been considering making a 6 br and trying it myself due to the recoil. Unfortunately , unlike you, John and Cathy, and others, I'm lucky to hit the occsaional ram, much less hit them in a specific location and the way I shoot these days I can't affort any ringers, regardless of the animal. Dan

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dustinflint » Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:32 pm

Dan,

Come on over to the 6mm dark side; it's great over here. Bring John too. We've got the best bullets, and brass and powders... anything you desire can be yours in exchange for just a few rams.

Have a seat at our table. We're not as bad as everyone says. Pay no attention to the strange fellow sitting next to you hitting all those chickens & pigs, he's harmless. Come a little closer. We don't bite.

Except... you've known us all for a long time and I suspect you know that's not entirely true.
Is it?

Happy Halloween!

Dustin

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Another Dang 9 » Wed Oct 31, 2018 7:09 pm

Someone once asked me many moons ago what I thought was the best cartridge for HP and I said 6mmBR and I got a lot of chuckles. How times have changed.
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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Thu Nov 01, 2018 7:56 am

I get the same questions asked of me by curious new club members who have not heard of the various silhouette games we shoot at CRC. Usually by phone call or emails. I prefer the calls over emails. More often than not the word offhand ends the conversation. But for those with interest I tend to go off the deep end describing the thrill, joy and satisfaction one feels after repeatedly tipping over distant targets, especially the rams. I always mention the long road and hard work it takes to develop great off hand shooting skills.

We have the few members that come to the range during a match and stay for awhile then ask some questions. Every time the first question is what cartridges are being used. I tell them about the current crop of rounds used that are working now, and what was used many years ago. I tell them the ram equation is the deciding factor on what minimum power ratio round works best. They get the various 6.5 rounds up through .30 cal. recommendations from me. Naturally, I tend to push the 7-08 as ideal for the game. I will touch on the 6mm's as OK but the rams could be a problem. I may have to change my recommended round to the 6.5 CM. It works well for some of our shooters and is a widely available chambering from just about every manufacturer.

As an MD with little spare time to get engaged in a conversation at a match with observers, I delegate the Q & A time of our program to Mr.B. He is a real ambassador to our sport and has the gift of gab in a good way. They leave knowing all they need to make the decision on whether to pursue involvement in silhouette. I wish I could say we sign up new shooters left and right. Not so. But we keep on trying.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Fri Nov 02, 2018 5:19 am

As a sort of aside....it has been suggested to place a stop on the leading edge of the ram pad. The idea being that the foot butts against the stop and so the theory goes the vibration/ shock of bullet hits causes the feet to bounce off the stop and thus knocks the ram off easier, Sounds plausible. Does anyone know of a range using this methodology? If so does it work?
Secondly the 7 br or even the 6.5 br I'm sure work well ...from observation. The recent problem of BRs is the scarcity of BR brass. As I have remarked before several of us necked up ppc brass to 7mm...that cartridge still pushed the 175 to 2200 fps,,,and worked fine except back then the brass was very expensive and the cartridge required resizing and fireforming to get the 40 degree shoulder; and we concluded that loading the BR or loading down the 7-08 was infinitely easier and cheaper. With only 29 grs of ball powder it had virtually no recoil. I notice that now the Grendel is readily available and could serve the basis of reprising the 7ppc or 6.5 ppc. More mouse guns

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Fri Nov 02, 2018 7:58 am

Snake, I can tell you that both AZ Ben Avery and NM Whittington ranges both use stops on the ram rails. I have helped set animals during practice at both places many times. I can't say what PA Ridgway does. At our club we have standard 100 pound rail which is about 5.25 - 5.5 inches wide. We try to keep the back of the 4 inch wide ram foot pads flush with the back of the rail. This will reduce how far a foot has to slide in the event of a weak or less desirable hit. How many times have you seen a foot pad just hanging on by a fraction. I would agree that rams do flex when hit and transfer that movement to the pad stops helping to bump them rearwards. In some of the videos that Jeff B. made at our club ( no pad stops) you can see the pads hopping in slow motion during the eventual fall to the ground.

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by dscak1 » Fri Nov 02, 2018 11:02 am

dustinflint wrote:
Wed Oct 31, 2018 6:32 pm
Dan,

Come on over to the 6mm dark side; it's great over here. Bring John too. We've got the best bullets, and brass and powders... anything you desire can be yours in exchange for just a few rams.

Have a seat at our table. We're not as bad as everyone says. Pay no attention to the strange fellow sitting next to you hitting all those chickens & pigs, he's harmless. Come a little closer. We don't bite.

Except... you've known us all for a long time and I suspect you know that's not entirely true.
Is it?

Happy Halloween!

Dustin
Trying desperatly to avoid the temptation, lol. Concerned about the fellow sitting next to me!!! He is a bit strange! Dan

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Snake » Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:49 pm

The reference to lever gun ignores a specific problem in that discipline. That problem was /is that the 30-30 was dinging rams and that caliber is not a light recoiling round. At our range there are no specific pads for lever gun rams and if they are set on the rail, that rail being wider than the ram foot, dinging was pretty common....even though the 44 mag , 45 long colt did pretty well. As an anecdote, one fellow used a 45-70 loaded with Trail Boss powder in a pop gun load and had no issues at all....a big slow moving bullet did the trick no matter how the rams were set. So with no pad we set the rams on the back edge so the 30-30 shooters weren't getting beat up for no reason.'Light recoiling rifles' was not a consideration.

As far as high power is concerned our rails have pads the exact size of the foot for each animal welded to the top of the rail. The rams can be pushed over by hand very easily,,,,,but if we have a north or northwest wind your rifle may have a problem...and past 300 there are always weird winds. I'm going to experiment with stops as soon as I can commandeer the portable welder...we'll see

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by No1_49er » Sat Nov 03, 2018 2:45 am

Snake wrote:
Fri Nov 02, 2018 8:49 pm
The reference to lever gun ignores a specific problem in that discipline. That problem was /is that the 30-30 was dinging rams and that caliber is not a light recoiling round. At our range there are no specific pads for lever gun rams and if they are set on the rail, that rail being wider than the ram foot, dinging was pretty common... even though the 44 mag, 45 long colt did pretty well. So with no pad we set the rams on the back edge so the 30-30 shooters weren't getting beat up for no reason. 'Light recoiling rifles' was not a consideration.

As far as high power is concerned our rails have pads the exact size of the foot for each animal welded to the top of the rail. The rams can be pushed over by hand very easily,,,,. I'm going to experiment with stops as soon as I can commandeer the portable welder...we'll see.
There has been a lot of discussion here about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of various cartridges that are best suited to toppling rams.
I am surprised, and consider it a bit disconcerting, that there is an admission of NOT setting the stands as prescribed in the Rulebook.

4. Targets
4.1 (the latter part of, beginning 'The "feet" ......' , and
4.2 (specific to Cowboy Lever Action Only), are both quite clear on how the stands for the feet are to be dimensioned, and how the CLAS topple point and subsequent setup are to be established, and for which "stops may be incorporated to facilitate setting the targets at the correct topple point". Note that that rule applies specifically to Rams.

If it is the case that the target banks are not set up in the prescribed manner, can the match, in all honesty, be called a "sanctioned match"?
So, if they're hit, causing one or both feet to be moved off the stand or pad, and make contact with another supporting surface, but still remain upright, shall be scored as a hit. A bit of a difficult ask if you are able to "shuffle" the animal along the rail, or whatever surface is used, but not "off its stand".

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Re: HOLYCOW Dustin

Post by Bob Mc Alice » Sat Nov 03, 2018 7:37 am

No1_49er wrote:

There has been a lot of discussion here about the effectiveness, or otherwise, of various cartridges that are best suited to toppling rams.
I am surprised, and consider it a bit disconcerting, that there is an admission of NOT setting the stands as prescribed in the Rulebook.

If it is the case that the target banks are not set up in the prescribed manner, can the match, in all honesty, be called a "sanctioned match"?
*****************************************************************************************************************************************************************

These are my thoughts exactly. Any venue that chooses to hold a sanctioned / registered tournament should have their targets and stands in good condition and targets set on those stands in compliance with the current rules of the game. Every attempt should be made to correct deficiencies. Soft setting targets is not a correction.

From a more personal standpoint I worked hard to get the only two HP rams 10 in a row pins I have. This was done years ago and not likely to ever be repeated. Five to eight is the best I can do now. The age thing.

I am strongly against any attempt to loosen up the current rules to accommodate improper ammunition for this game.
Last edited by Bob Mc Alice on Sat Nov 03, 2018 4:01 pm, edited 1 time in total.

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