Big Changes

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cedestech
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Re: Big Changes

Post by cedestech »

Your correct... I skimmed... Now that you have explained your position it is even better... you'd like the NRA to work for free.

Nice.

:ymapplause:
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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jbolt
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Re: Big Changes

Post by jbolt »

Hmmm...I have not nor would I ever deny someone from competing for class prizes simply because they don't have or want a book or soon to be score card. Why on earth would I want to exclude anyone? We even have prizes for the unofficial varmint class if there is more than one competitor.

FYI NRA High Power charges $4.50 for each recorded score regardless of match fee. I would count on there being a comparable fee for each silhouette score you want reported.
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Jason
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Jason »

cedestech wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 pm Your correct... I skimmed... Now that you have explained your position it is even better... you'd like the NRA to work for free.

Nice.

:ymapplause:
Again, reread what I wrote. I even explicitly mentioned a per-match fee instead. If you are determined to argue, please at least try to address what I actually typed. Here's a hint of what doesn't work, and wastes everyone's time reading it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
cedestech
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Re: Big Changes

Post by cedestech »

Jason wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:41 pm
cedestech wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:34 pm Your correct... I skimmed... Now that you have explained your position it is even better... you'd like the NRA to work for free.

Nice.

:ymapplause:
Again, reread what I wrote. I even explicitly mentioned a per-match fee instead. If you are determined to argue, please at least try to address what I actually typed. Here's a hint of what doesn't work, and wastes everyone's time reading it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Straw_man
Where? I think you may have typed some things in your head and they never made it to the keyboard...

Here is the best part. It really doesn't matter. As I have stated before (not this thread) the NRA will do what they are going to do. Match directors and competitors will have to choose to play along or not. I honestly am OK either way.... even if this was a zero sum gain it's a loss and I don't have the crayons or urge to draw it out. Change for the sake of change is not good.

But hey.... those books are gone....

(yeah, get what a straw man is and it's use in a discussion)

:-$
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
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Jason
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Re: Big Changes

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cedestech wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:54 pm Where? I think you may have typed some things in your head and they never made it to the keyboard...
Right here...
Jason wrote: Fri Dec 21, 2018 8:31 pm I am not assuming anything. I am stating exactly what the shooters at my matches have told me. It's not that they are financially incapable of paying the $13 book fee, so please keep your condescending tone out of this. They choose not to pay the cost of the book. They would likely also not pay an annual license fee of $10 or more until they decide they really like silhouette. They have stated that they would pay an extra dollar or two per match, like they do with some other competitive shooting events. It doesn't matter if a $13 book is cheaper over 20 matches than $1 per match if they aren't even sure if they'll shoot more silhouette matches.
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dustinflint
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Re: Big Changes

Post by dustinflint »

Jason,

I see what you're saying but I don't see where you've proposed an alternative that you'd like to see.

I can't stand the scorebooks. They are a bunch of extra work for match directors that don't provide any real value. The only practical purpose of the scorebook is to keep up with classifications and record changes in classification.

If silhouette is going to continue to be a competitive sport, and that sport is going to have classifications, then there will have to be a way to keep up with it. If it is going to be kept by the NRA or if the NRA is going to provide a medium to keep up with it, then there will be some cost involved.

If we keep the books, or a license as I described above is implemented, it will of course be up to the MDs whether they will let someone shoot at their match without a book or a license. There can be a rule that such a practice is not allowed but there is no way for anyone to actually stop the MD from allowing an unlicensed competitor from competing. So nothing will really change there.

The problem arises when shooters without a book or license show up to a championship (or non-championship) match and want to shoot in a certain class. They need to have a way to prove their class. It just doesn't work any other way. If someone just wants to show up to their club matches and shoot without being put in a certain class (or in master class) then so be it if the MD allows. That's the way it is now.

I guess the rule requiring that all competitors present a license or book could be taken out and master class shooters avoid that expense since they're going to be put in master class anyway. Would that solve the problem as you see it?

Dustin
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Jason
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Jason »

My preference would be to have classifications kept centrally like every other competition that I shoot. That does often come with a per match fee, at least for anything other than local weekly/monthly matches. I can provide my competitor ID, which is usually my NRA number for NRA-sanctioned matches, and shoot. If the match director is unable to look up my competitor ID at the time and I happen to not have a classification card or other proof of classification, I can state my classification that can be verified by someone else at the match with better cell signal or by the match director later.

We specifically don't let shooters at our match compete for class winner without having a book, as the book is currently where classifications are kept. A score from a shooter without a book is designated as a "P" for classification, which represents a "practice" score. We have never explicitly not allowed a person to compete for overall match winner without a book, but we have also never had someone without a book shoot a score while following all of the rules that would have won the match. We let anyone who wants to shoot a match do so, as long as they are not damaging the targets. We commonly have new or young shooters shoot off the bench for the 1/5 scale targets. I even shot my 9mm AR carbine on the second relay at the last pistol cartridge match, and it was really fun. It was just another "P" score on the scoresheet, and as soon as I recorded the score for my first five shots there were more shots that followed until the targets were down. :D
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DavidABQ
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Re: Big Changes

Post by DavidABQ »

Maybe I will frame my old scorebooks and hang them on a wall as a tribute to a time now passed. \m/
cedestech
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Re: Big Changes

Post by cedestech »

I'm going to reiterate a few things and then let it go till it works out or turns into a chit show....

WE are a vocal MINORITY on here. Just because we have an opinion one way or another neither makes it correct nor popular. There are people who like the books. Their opinion is just as valid as anyone else.

Through purposeful or negligent mishandling of the system that the books represent the NRA feels it's time to change the system. Like them or not the books were a simple if not clumsy way of dealing with a complex set of circumstances.

The replacement system is not going to be less costly. Much like a certain insurance debacle from 10 years ago you can not ad a layer of bureaucracy and make something cheaper.

We get no choice. The NRA has decided and it will be what it will be. At the best it will be painful at first. At the worst it will be as much work, just shifted from the day of the match to later that evening.

Best case scenario, it's a zero sum gain. Lateral movements are stupid. It's a waste of energy and resources with no progress.

Worst case scenario you are going to loose recorded "approved" matches because there are match directors out there who will not play along. Even if they continue to run their monthly match at their gun club as far as the NRA is concerned they will no longer exist and it will be a net reduction in participation in the sport. That is not good.

The Books are dead, Long live the Card!
Emmett Dibble, Houston, Texas. Where's my buddy Jason? Keeper of electronic records and banisher of little pieces of paper?
DonM
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Re: Big Changes

Post by DonM »

This is something Competitions has been floating around for a few years now. It was heavily discussed on some of the BPCR forums when Ranney first floated the idea.
The biggest problem is going to be how quick will the NRA be about getting scores reported to a shooters activity list, and new cards issued when a shooter changes class.
Also I can see a problem with match directors not following the reporting and leaving their shooters on the book system, but if those shooters travel to a match somewhere that is using the card's then that could cause some problems for the shooter that travels and hasn't been issued a classification card..
frankmako
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Re: Big Changes

Post by frankmako »

The big question is do I get one license for all my rifle silhouette shooting or do I get seven different licenses for the seven different rifle silhouette matches I shoot. The same for pistol silhouette. Do I get one pistol license or four licenses for the four different pistol silhouette matches I shoot. Or do I get one license for all, rifle and pistol?

At three of the clubs I shoot at I don't see the match directors doing NRA matches anymore. This year I shot four different state matches and one regional match. So I hope the NRA will let me setup a profile so I can get a silhouette license.

Back in the 80's we had the "cards". You purchased the cards that you needed for the type of matches you shot. Are we going back to a card type system, but cards without scores.

This is going to be fun to see how this goes.
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Re: Big Changes

Post by DonM »

Just guessing here, but if they run this like they do the BPTR classifications, you'll be issued a card for every discipline. In the BPTR we are issued classification cards for midrange position, midrange prone, and long range. So I would assume they'll issue silhouette class in all the disciplines you shoot in. Going to need a card folder in your range bag.
Jerry G
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Jerry G »

The NRA is going to do what they want to do and we have NO say. We will just end up thnking how we can work aroun the things we don't like just like we have done with the books.
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Snake »

As a historical note, back in the bad old days one had to buy a score card for each silhouette discipline they participated in. Each card cost $6.00. The cost was and remains incidental...not like its going to break the bank. My club matches will always be sanctioned, whether NBRSA, IDPA, NRA, CMP etc...its an issue of insurance and warding off the accusation of being a bunch of plinkers who governments argue can easily be regulated into extinction. Of course the new competitor gets a break up to a point....just as in every organized sanctioned discipline. I like the idea of central score reporting...cuts down my work and debates about the classification of certain contestants. My only question is in the transition....but we'll see and hope its not a chinese fire drill ;)
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Re: Big Changes

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frankmako wrote: Sat Dec 22, 2018 8:10 am The big question is do I get one license for all my rifle silhouette shooting or do I get seven different licenses for the seven different rifle silhouette matches I shoot. The same for pistol silhouette. Do I get one pistol license or four licenses for the four different pistol silhouette matches I shoot. Or do I get one license for all, rifle and pistol?
I shoot F-Class and have two classification cards. A card for F-Class Mid-Range and a card for Smallbore Rifle F-Class were issued. Extrapolating on that, I suspect a separate classification card will be issued for each type of silhouette match found in the rifle score book and pistol score book.

Why are some calling the classification card a license?
-Charlie (Lee) Meli
Retired match director @ Piedmont Gun Club, Rutherdfordton, NC
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