Big Changes

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Hawkeye7br
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Hawkeye7br » Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:59 pm

My NRA rifle experience started about 2 years ago, I've shot a few smallbore matches, and have a record book.

I've been shooting IHMSA handgun silo since 1983. We have always used cards to record our scores. There are 24 categories in IHMSA compared to 16 for NRA rifle.

IHMSA scorecards are a simple trifold that extends to about 9x11, and contain all the same info that NRA books do, i.e., classification for each gun, classification scores, MD initials, etc. Each discipline has room for 18 entries. If you shoot more than 18 times with the same gun, HQ will send you a 2nd card. Both cards would be presented at a match.

IHMSA MD's send $1 from each entry to HQ.

I haven't seen any other posting comparing the new NRA cards to the IHMSA cards that have been used for 30+ years. I assume I'm the only one on this site that shoots both disciplines.

Take this post for whatever you want, but this thread sounds pretty overblown on the problems that perhaps don't exist. Perhaps folks could take a step back & see what the new cards look like before going crazy.

Just my .02 that NRA is perhaps following a format from another organization that has used it for years.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by DavidABQ » Thu Jan 03, 2019 4:04 pm

cedestech wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:48 pm
I believe a photo of each page that you want a card for... ie: Small bore standard, small bore hunter,
I guess I could wait until the next registered match that I attend.

That would be the NRA National at The Whittington Centee in 2020.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by ShootingStar » Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:58 am

Hawkeye7br,
Hawkeye7br wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:59 pm
IHMSA scorecards are a simple trifold that extends to about 9x11, and contain all the same info that NRA books do, i.e., classification for each gun, classification scores, MD initials, etc. Each discipline has room for 18 entries. If you shoot more than 18 times with the same gun, HQ will send you a 2nd card. Both cards would be presented at a match.

IHMSA MD's send $1 from each entry to HQ.

I haven't seen any other posting comparing the new NRA cards to the IHMSA cards that have been used for 30+ years. I assume I'm the only one on this site that shoots both disciplines.
I too don't want to take this down the wrong road. . .
I'm NOT familiar with the IHMSA card, but it sounds like the difference between it and the NRA card is: the NRA card is merely a Classification Card, not record of scores (as it sounds like for the IHMSA).

The change, as most changes, will be difficult because none of us have experienced all that we will going through this. I try to think ahead in time: What will it look like (functionally) years from now? Some of us old competitors will be gone from the sport and some new folks joining in (hopefully). Those newbies will never see our old Scorebooks, nor the good/bad they brought with them. They will only experience life with Classification Cards and on-line score look-ups (when they have Internet reception).
As a competitor and Match Director of Monthly and State Championships, I'll struggle through until we (all - collectively) have seen or experienced all the things that are now unknown. We will get through the muck and emerge "on the other side" and life will go on. Those damn animals will still not fall with just thought - we'll still have to hit them with the bullet!

Let's all try to be consistent in our approach to those circumstances that will arise that don't have answers in this one letter from Aaron. This forum might be a good place to help that "standardization." It sounds like Aaron has been responsive in responding to questions. So, let's just work through it. I like the alternative ideas that have been put forth and those can be discussed (and others) here and with Aaron. Who knows what this will really look like 2, 5 or 10 years from now!

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Re: Big Changes

Post by atomicbrh » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:20 am

How many of the folks who complained about the paper books and campaigned for recording scores electronically will next begin complaining about how it is too hard, too time consuming, too slow and taking too much range space to shoot metallic targets off of steel rails and then go down range to reset them on the rails? Next they will demand targets on electronic screens that never have to be reset. Then any projectile at any speed that the screen can detect will be sufficient.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by cedestech » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:28 am

atomicbrh wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:20 am
How many of the folks who complained about the paper books and campaigned for recording scores electronically will next begin complaining about how it is too hard, too time consuming, too slow and taking too much range space to shoot metallic targets off of steel rails and then go down range to reset them on the rails? Next they will demand targets on electronic screens that never have to be reset. Then any projectile at any speed that the screen can detect will be sufficient.
:)
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

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Re: Big Changes

Post by cedestech » Fri Jan 04, 2019 7:32 am

ShootingStar wrote:
Fri Jan 04, 2019 6:58 am
Hawkeye7br,
Hawkeye7br wrote:
Thu Jan 03, 2019 2:59 pm
IHMSA scorecards are a simple trifold that extends to about 9x11, and contain all the same info that NRA books do, i.e., classification for each gun, classification scores, MD initials, etc. Each discipline has room for 18 entries. If you shoot more than 18 times with the same gun, HQ will send you a 2nd card. Both cards would be presented at a match.

IHMSA MD's send $1 from each entry to HQ.

I haven't seen any other posting comparing the new NRA cards to the IHMSA cards that have been used for 30+ years. I assume I'm the only one on this site that shoots both disciplines.
I too don't want to take this down the wrong road. . .
I'm NOT familiar with the IHMSA card, but it sounds like the difference between it and the NRA card is: the NRA card is merely a Classification Card, not record of scores (as it sounds like for the IHMSA).

The change, as most changes, will be difficult because none of us have experienced all that we will going through this. I try to think ahead in time: What will it look like (functionally) years from now? Some of us old competitors will be gone from the sport and some new folks joining in (hopefully). Those newbies will never see our old Scorebooks, nor the good/bad they brought with them. They will only experience life with Classification Cards and on-line score look-ups (when they have Internet reception).
As a competitor and Match Director of Monthly and State Championships, I'll struggle through until we (all - collectively) have seen or experienced all the things that are now unknown. We will get through the muck and emerge "on the other side" and life will go on. Those damn animals will still not fall with just thought - we'll still have to hit them with the bullet!

Let's all try to be consistent in our approach to those circumstances that will arise that don't have answers in this one letter from Aaron. This forum might be a good place to help that "standardization." It sounds like Aaron has been responsive in responding to questions. So, let's just work through it. I like the alternative ideas that have been put forth and those can be discussed (and others) here and with Aaron. Who knows what this will really look like 2, 5 or 10 years from now!

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That. I took pictures of all my and my wifes classifications and sent them to Aaron last night... pita... but at least those damn filthy books are gone... =))
Emmett Dibble, Rosenberg Texas. All hail Jason, writer of novellas and destroyer of small pieces of paper!!!

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Re: Big Changes

Post by Hawkeye7br » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:46 am

IHMSA cards contain all the same info as NRA except for the 2 highest scores notation. Name, address, year, membership #, classification for each category in each discipline that is updated by the MD. It's a simple format that allows the MD to put all your match scores for that day/event on a single line. Assumption is a 40 round match unless noted otherwise.

I tried to type out what it looks like but edit function keeps condensing the spaces between words & scores.

I would submit a photo except 1) I'm techno challenged and 2) it doesn't matter, NRA already has this planned out.

I gotta admit to being taken back a bit upon seeing how complex the NRA book is compared to the IHMSA card, & understand the MD complaints. As with other recent posts, we just have to see how this works out, but IMHO it's no big deal.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by Jerry G » Fri Jan 04, 2019 10:57 am

How does the book we use now differ from the IHMSA cards? I think you are missing the point of the 'CARDS'.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by DavidABQ » Fri Jan 04, 2019 9:38 pm

I am not sure it makes much of a difference, books or cards. I guess I should consider thinking about the possibility of maybe obtaining photos of my book prior to the next nationals at The Whittington Center.

We don’t let a silhouette match get in the way of a good B.S. session and we certainly are not going through the trouble of doing the NRA’s paperwork stuff!

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Re: Big Changes

Post by Snake » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:26 am

It seems to me that this transition can be easier if the NRA simply lets the match director certify the competitor's class based upon their previous book entries rather than requiring scanning and forwarding book entries to establish a 'history'.....obviously a new shooter would be handled based upon their initial score. I don't see a MD certifying 'sandbagging'. This scanning for history creates the issue of dealing with one who's 2018 scores are lower than their previously established class.....do they then get the lower class? And what good comes from red-assing match directors with scanning and reporting historical scores. No doubt after the first year of electronic reporting the classification issue will straighten itself out without the scan and report.....or am I off base? :-?

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Re: Big Changes

Post by atomicbrh » Sun Jan 06, 2019 10:51 am

The current rule 19.17 that a A, AA, or AAA competitor is moved up to the next higher classification when they shoot three higher scores within a two year period than their current classification needs to be changed. It should be changed to some number more than three matches in a two year period, maybe the average of a year's scores, maybe the average of two year's scores or something like that. The wind and conditions are my reason. On the no wind, easy condition days scores go up dramatically. Three of those days in a two year period and "boom" the competitor is in a class that does not truly represent his or her skill level. Most competitors including myself shoot below their classification on most match days. (Example: I am a AAA in Scoped Smallbore and Hunter. My 2018 average score was AA.)
The breakout rule 19.17.1 should be retained to take care of the "gamers".
Rule 19.17.1 Reclassification during a Registered Match - If a competitor
shoots a score which is two or more classes above the currently held classification,
that competitor shall be reclassified to one class below the class in which
such high score falls, for that match and thereafter. Example: If a Class A competitor
shoots a AAA score, that competitor will immediately be reclassified to
AA for that match and thereafter.

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Re: Big Changes

Post by cslcAl » Sun Jan 06, 2019 12:12 pm

Maybe this will help. I sent this to Aaron today. He seems to be receptive to suggestions. After all we’re all in this together.
I’ll,post a reply when I receive it.

Al Foust

Aaron,

I have been involved with running matches since 1982, So I have had a lot of experience with the ins and outs of the sport.

From what I see with the new system the reporting of scores is a very simple process that should not be a burden to anyone. What seems to have everyone stymied is the copying of the 2018 score book. If the match directors are to be responsible for this it’s a burden on them if they don’t have a copier. That’s why I submitted my own to you.

In my opinion it would be easier for the match directors just to initially submit the shooters contact info from the front of the 2018 classification book and the 2 highest scores fired from the last year of competition like we have recorded in our books for ever. That would really give you all the info you need for your data base. We only carry 2 scores from the last year anyway. I would think that would make it simpler on your end also as you wouldn’t have to look at all the shooters scores from the last year.

Thanks,
Al Foust
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Re: Big Changes

Post by Snake » Sun Jan 06, 2019 3:10 pm

Al. your suggestion is a good one. It would streamline things. Especially since the books only evidence the two previous years high scores anyway and ANY downward reclassification has to be by petition after 12 consecutive lower than current class scores (presumably provable by the petitioner) once every two years. Thus the need for copies of the 2018 scores is unnecessary to transition to electronic centralized records. Once classified always classified with up or down as prescribed by rule....up by scoring better and down by petition, Thus as usual the MD has to identify the competitors proper class until the database gets populated over time

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Re: Big Changes

Post by Sporty » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:07 pm

Good idea, Al.
-Charlie Meli

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Re: Big Changes

Post by DavidABQ » Sun Jan 06, 2019 7:59 pm

These are great ideas except they do not account for the occasional registered silhouette shooter? The person who is lucky to shoot in a NRA registered match once every couple of years?

I guess myself and a couple of my friends need to send in our books.

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