Bad News

[kevinbear]

They should rename Ridgeway the east coast regional, Pe ell could be the west coast regional the Saint Louis regional would be the central and the range for the nationals. Rules would be like football in that people couldn't compete in the first round out of their home region. Rules would be that to qualify to be a "region" there would have to be 35 or 50 or some significant number of shooters from that area compete in the regional tournament in any given year in the case that there was a desire to add say as an example a south east group from Florida, Georgia etc.
Only the class and match winners from each region would qualify for the nationals.

The difference is there is no TV paying for the privilege to broadcast and no fans to pay for tickets.

And therefore what?

[Sporty]

Class and match winners aren't paid a salary to go to the Nationals. Therefore, it's not like football.

[kevinbear]

Class and match winners aren't paid a salary to go to the Nationals. Therefore, it's not like football.

Your pretty observant, they don't use a football either.
I didn't say they would be paid, I just said the rules concerning regions could be like football.
If a class or match winner didn't compete at the nationals it wouldn't be any different than the way it is now, the ones that did show up would shoot it out for champion.

[thauglor]

So only like 10 to 15 people would be attending the nationals then? It's not like we are turning people away because our matches are full, then invite only could be feasible.

For the 2020 south west nationals, the 1000 yard match sold out in 30 minutes (for the 2019 it was about 2 hours and 6 hours the year before, I got in 2019). That had 360 shooters, and so far I haven't heard a peep about that becoming invite only.

[kevinbear]

So only like 10 to 15 people would be attending the nationals then? It's not like we are turning people away because our matches are full, then invite only could be feasible.

For the 2020 south west nationals, the 1000 yard match sold out in 30 minutes (for the 2019 it was about 2 hours and 6 hours the year before, I got in 2019). That had 360 shooters, and so far I haven't heard a peep about that becoming invite only.

There's been a steady decline in attendance at the highpower and smallbore silhouette nationals for 20 years, it won't be long before it's a small group of master class shooters anyway. There's a few places in the country where scoped silhouette remains popular but the trends clearly show it's days are numbered. As you alluded to precision long range shooting has swept the country but what happens at 1000yd matches is irrelevant to this conversation.

[Sporty]

Class and match winners aren't paid a salary to go to the Nationals. Therefore, it's not like football.

Your pretty observant, they don't use a football either.
I didn't say they would be paid, I just said the rules concerning regions could be like football.
If a class or match winner didn't compete at the nationals it wouldn't be any different than the way it is now, the ones that did show up would shoot it out for champion.

I'm extending my power of observation. This conversation is now irrational.

[atomicbrh]

This is where you are wrong. We do have professionals competing in silhouette who earn their income from the shooting sports.
These people have sale tax licenses, business permits, FFL licenses, own gun stores and sell ammo, rifles, optics, parts and accessories for silhouette.
Others specialize in building stocks and rifles for silhouette. Many of these are not one man shops but have a few employees.
Others are employed by ammunition, powder, projectile and cartridge manufacturers.
Others work in labs or facilities to actually shoot the ammunition, powder, projectile and cartridge for test purposes for their employer.
Others manufacture targets.
It is rare but there are some who have made a profit operating ranges and hosting matches.
We also have people who are sponsored shooters that are compensated in some significant form for their shooting accomplishments whether that be ammo or other things that in turn help them perform.
I feel like a person working in the shooting sports full time has a huge advantage in training techniques, practice time, and quicker knowledge of technology advances.
When contrasted to the competitor who pays for everything out of their family budget from their non-shooting sports job, all of the above people can be classified as professional silhouette shooters because they earn income or a product that has considerable monetary value.
The question is: Should there be Amateur only matches where there is a cap on past compensation in the form of money, sponsorship or prize value? There is provision for Specialty Amateur only matches in the NRA Rule book.
This is something to think about as we go into the future.
I am not complaining about our Professionals because every one of them is a friend and I am thankful for what they do for our sport making a commitment to work in the shooting sports industry as a career.

[SSShooter]

While some of the above may be true for high-power, I can assure it is not true for BPCR silhouette and most likely not true for any of the levergun classes, especially smallbore & pistol cartridge.
Plus, who cares? That is why we have classes and rules about how well you can shoot within a class at regional & national matches without getting bumped-up to prevent (as best we can) sand-baggers.
I'm guessing that all the real money in the shooting sports has migrated away from silhouette to other types of shooting where they burn up lots of ammo & barrels (BPCR, rimfire & pistol cartridge barrels are good for many thousands of rounds - don't burn out many barrels and ammo is cheap or one loads their own).
Go to your matches (all of them....... local, state, regional & national) and have a great time with a bunch of like-minded folks. Do the best you can and if you get beat by someone you think is a "pro", no big deal. Do the best you can and enjoy.

As far as shoot-offs to get to the nationals, that's why we have classes. So everyone can shoot and have a great time. Don't want classes, host an invitational and invite only the best (which will leave out 95% of us).

[Sporty]

This is where you are wrong. We do have professionals competing in silhouette who earn their income from the shooting sports.
These people have sale tax licenses, business permits, FFL licenses, own gun stores and sell ammo, rifles, optics, parts and accessories for silhouette.
Others specialize in building stocks and rifles for silhouette. Many of these are not one man shops but have a few employees.
Others are employed by ammunition, powder, projectile and cartridge manufacturers.
Others work in labs or facilities to actually shoot the ammunition, powder, projectile and cartridge for test purposes for their employer.
Others manufacture targets.
It is rare but there are some who have made a profit operating ranges and hosting matches.
We also have people who are sponsored shooters that are compensated in some significant form for their shooting accomplishments whether that be ammo or other things that in turn help them perform.
I feel like a person working in the shooting sports full time has a huge advantage in training techniques, practice time, and quicker knowledge of technology advances.
When contrasted to the competitor who pays for everything out of their family budget from their non-shooting sports job, all of the above people can be classified as professional silhouette shooters because they earn income or a product that has considerable monetary value.
The question is: Should there be Amateur only matches where there is a cap on past compensation in the form of money, sponsorship or prize value? There is provision for Specialty Amateur only matches in the NRA Rule book.
This is something to think about as we go into the future.
I am not complaining about our Professionals because every one of them is a friend and I am thankful for what they do for our sport making a commitment to work in the shooting sports industry as a career.

I'm not wrong about what I said. We don't have professionals who are all paid to compete in metallic silhouette like there are with football. Players, coaches, managers, and team owners. It would be different if the people who make footballs, jersies, helmets, pads also played professional football.

[atomicbrh]

Charlie, I see your point that not all silhouette participants are professionals but some are when compared to the amateur/professional designation rules in other sports. In one of the motor racing sports for example, if a person receives more than Two Thousand dollars in prizes or money at one event, that person is no longer allowed in amateur events. A similar rule could be applied to level of sponsorship.

[Sporty]

Charlie, I see your point that not all silhouette participants are professionals but some are when compared to the amateur/professional designation rules in other sports. In one of the motor racing sports for example, if a person receives more than Two Thousand dollars in prizes or money at one event, that person is no longer allowed in amateur events. A similar rule could be applied to level of sponsorship.

Of course. I just couldn't agree on the process of elimination to compete in Nationals. I may not be able to afford to go to a National even if I were lucky enough to score big in a regional.

[kevinbear]

Having the country organized into 3 or 4 regions at least initially would make it possible for most shooters to drive to a top level competition in a day or less. It would also encourage local participation in silhouette. As far as having no pre-qualifications for nationals I can't think of another sport that just lets anyone with a heartbeat show up and compete at a national competition of any kind which undoubtedly cheapens the event.

[cedestech]

Having the country organized into 3 or 4 regions at least initially would make it possible for most shooters to drive to a top level competition in a day or less. It would also encourage local participation in silhouette. As far as having no pre-qualifications for nationals I can't think of another sport that just lets anyone with a heartbeat show up and compete at a national competition of any kind which undoubtedly cheapens the event.

Don't have a dog in this discussion but can attest having raced for a substantial period of time, most "finals" have a
score requirement for class and most national/international races have a qualifying time. If you can't make some percentage of the top qualifying time (road racing but assume it applies to roundy round) you are not allowed to compete. There it is more a safety issue though....

[Sporty]

Why change tradition? So what if it's called NRA Nationals. Metallic silhouette doesn't have the player population other sports have. If you're looking to promote a sport you don't want to limit participation by turning away players just because they can't beat a Master. The only reason to limit the competitor count is range capacity. Not classification.

[BrentD]

My understanding is that Ridgway required a contract with the NRA for silhouettes thru 2026 so they have a basis for planning.

In other words, it was a LIE when we were told that BPCR and Lever Gun (at least) would alternate annually with the Whit.

Not that I believed you then, but let's own up to the truth someday. Silhouette is never coming back to the Whit.