1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

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Number10GI
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1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by Number10GI »

I have a Winchester (Miroku copy) 1885 low wall in .22lr that I would like to be able to shoot in the smallbore lever gun silhouette class. I don't understand how this style rifle is not allowed. It is a lever action, granted it is a single shot and does not auto load the round, so how much more cowboy can you get than a falling block or rolling block rifle? I know it's not called Cowboy anymore but that was the original classification. How can the Marlin 60 be considered for this class? It definitely wasn't around when lever guns came out. I have a Marlin 39A that I shoot, but now and then I really like to shoot the low wall. I'm sure there are others that would like to use the low wall for silhouette.
Who has the authority to add this style rifle to the approved gun list? Info on how to contact this person/group would be appreciated.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by DAVIDMAGNUM »

There are likely match directors that will allow you to shoot that rifle.......but it is not legal for this game.
There is no tubular magazine and the cartridges are not fed by the rifles action.
Again, you may be able to shoot it but not be eligible for any awards, classifications or even a recorded score.
There is a chance that it can be used as a "club gun", but will admit to not knowing.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by No1_49er »

A rifle of low-wall design is NOT a lever action rifle. Yes, it is operated by a lever but it is, in fact, a falling block rifle. Same argument/definition applies to the Martini action. Again, operated by a lever, but a falling/tilting (Martini) action. Or for that matter, a Ruger No.1. Where would it end?
Some match directors may well let it "slip through", if only to encourage participation but a result could never be recorded for a 'sanctioned match'.
Tubular magazine, exposed hammer, fed through and from the magazine. It's all in the Rule Book.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by DonM »

Look around and see if there's a 22bpcr match nearby, that rifle is great for that shooting discipline, and a very popular one at that.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by No1_49er »

For a Low Wall, or similar, go here http://www.22bpcra.com/
And the rules for their shoots are here http://www.22bpcra.com/wp-content/uploa ... 1-2020.pdf
Chickens are shot offhand. All other animals are with rifle supported in the "crossed stick" position, as defined in their rules.
You might also note that there are actually two matches, which could be shot with the same rifle suitably equipped with an easily mountable scope (repeatable accuracy); Iron Sight and Scope Sight. Again, their own clear and specific rules.
Enjoy.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by Number10GI »

No1_49er wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 3:08 am A rifle of low-wall design is NOT a lever action rifle. Yes, it is operated by a lever but it is, in fact, a falling block rifle. Same argument/definition applies to the Martini action. Again, operated by a lever, but a falling/tilting (Martini) action. Or for that matter, a Ruger No.1. Where would it end?
Some match directors may well let it "slip through", if only to encourage participation but a result could never be recorded for a 'sanctioned match'.
Tubular magazine, exposed hammer, fed through and from the magazine. It's all in the Rule Book.
From what I can find out the Martini in .22lr came out in the early 1960's where as the Winchester low wall in .22 came out sometime in the later 1880's. The Marlin 60 is not a lever gun either, so the argument that the 1885 isn't a lever gun is moot. How many pump and automatic tube feed rifles are there? Quite a few so wasn't that a flood gate being opened and where did it end? As far as I can determine Ruger doesn't make the No.1 in .22 lr. The Marlin 60, Remington 77 and a number of other semi-auto tubular fed .22 lr rifles don't have an exposed hammer so that is meaningless.
My point of contention is that this was called "Cowboy" until recently so why were semi-auto rifles that definitely aren't from the "Cowboy" era allowed in the competition, but a true "Cowboy" era rifle is not allowed?

So, to answer my question, to whom do I direct my inquiry to see if the low wall can be allowed?
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by Number10GI »

No1_49er wrote: Tue Jan 18, 2022 11:41 am For a Low Wall, or similar, go here http://www.22bpcra.com/
And the rules for their shoots are here http://www.22bpcra.com/wp-content/uploa ... 1-2020.pdf
Chickens are shot offhand. All other animals are with rifle supported in the "crossed stick" position, as defined in their rules.
You might also note that there are actually two matches, which could be shot with the same rifle suitably equipped with an easily mountable scope (repeatable accuracy); Iron Sight and Scope Sight. Again, their own clear and specific rules.
Enjoy.
From past research I have found that this competition isn't held anywhere near me, however there is a lot of "Cowboy" silhouette shooting close by that I participate in with my Marlin 39A and my .44mag lever gun. Variety is the spice of life and the low wall would be another spice I could enjoy.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by hermit5 »

#10G,you have a private message.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by No1_49er »

Perhaps the private message corrects some of the misunderstanding but without knowing, I will add this.
This really doesn't need to be hard. But!
The low wall rifle does not have a tubular magazine. End of story; case closed.
With respect to the Martini action; this has been around, in exactly the same format, since the 1870's - think British 577/450 cartridge.
And whether or not the Ruger No.1 was ever produced as a 22LR, the salient point is that it is a falling block rifle and not a lever action.
BTW, the current (2020) Rule Book can be found here https://competitions.nra.org/competitio ... ule-books/ Pages 7 & 8 are good places to start.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by Number10GI »

What is so hard about my question??????? I asked is there is an individual or a board that I could contact to present my case.

I guess that rules are carved in titanium and even God can't change them.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by DonM »

Number10GI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:12 am What is so hard about my question??????? I asked is there is an individual or a board that I could contact to present my case.

I guess that rules are carved in titanium and even God can't change them.
You can provide your request to the NRA silhouette committee for consideration, but it would be unlikely to get any movement on it. It would be a bugger to try and get the number of shots off in that rifle to fit the time slot of the lever gun target banks.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by Number10GI »

DonM wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 12:15 pm
Number10GI wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 11:12 am What is so hard about my question??????? I asked is there is an individual or a board that I could contact to present my case.

I guess that rules are carved in titanium and even God can't change them.
You can provide your request to the NRA silhouette committee for consideration, but it would be unlikely to get any movement on it. It would be a bugger to try and get the number of shots off in that rifle to fit the time slot of the lever gun target banks.
Thank you for the information. I have had no problem getting my 5 shots off in the time allocated. Loading the single shot is pretty quick with a bit of practice.
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by thauglor »

Some of the rules don't make sense, but that is the way they are. Good luck with your change, but one reason it isn't allowed could be the difference in accuracy between these and other lever guns. Never shot one but if it has a floated barrel then that will certainly be more accurate and most lever guns

Also doesn't make sense that image stabilized binoculars are allowed but spotting scopes are not
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by psteiger »

Come down to Houston. We shoot a cheater rifle class and anything open sight is allowed. The match director is a great guy and recognizes that people have guns that don't fit anywhere, (like he does) and has a class just for us. I shoot my martini and my old prewar mauser in this class. Get 2 friends to do the same and you get prizes. In fact we get the same prizes as the conformists.....The other houston club match director will even set the 3/8th scale targets at 50, 75, 100 and 150 for a sorta BPCR feel, but you shoot offhanded with.....wait for it......any open sight gun.... Again, flexible match directors are the best! All we want to do is have fun! :ymparty:
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Re: 1885 Low Wall for Smallbore Lever Gun Silhouette

Post by cedestech »

psteiger wrote: Wed Jan 19, 2022 8:08 pm Come down to Houston. We shoot a cheater rifle class and anything open sight is allowed. The match director is a great guy and recognizes that people have guns that don't fit anywhere, (like he does) and has a class just for us.
I heard that guy is an unwiped a**...

He won't even wade into a topic like this and explain that with a modicum of reading around on this forum one would understand that there really isn't a "competition department" right now or a silhouette "committee" to request rules changes... The NRA currently has just 2 people to do everything with all competitions... which silhouette is but a small sliver.

He also wouldn't explain that part of the reason for single shots not being allowed by the rules is the inherent accuracy potential (1 MOA rifles vs 2-3MOA rifles) and longer sight radius in general (26-30" barrels vs 20-24")...

There is also the fact that the name of the game is "Lever Gun", not single shot rifle silhouette.

As previously mentioned, unless the local match director has a stick up their butt, they should allow you to participate at the club matches but not earn official points. Get 2 more people to shoot non-standard rifles and have your own class. The mentioned "cheater gun class" is open to anything and as the name implies, cheating is encouraged if not expected... early shots, 6+ shots, cross shooting someone elses animals (hopefully right as they are about to shoot them)... It's about enjoying being at the range with like minded people.

As far as single shot rifles being sanctioned for SB, PC or CLA, I don't see that happening.

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