AR Modernization for growth

More expensive to feed, but worth it.
Heavybarrell
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by Heavybarrell »

I don't think think this is " common thinking" and I hope they do extend rifle options. But there will have to be brass control. I don't think that's too much to ask.
hermit5
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by hermit5 »

Using a SLED(Single Loading Enhanced Device)allows for a more flush mount magazine and curbs the machine gun types firing 5 rds in 10 seconds.
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

There are some advantages to shooting really fast. You likely won’t need to reset many targets, you have some free time to watch the more controlled shooter hit targets and you have some spare time to tidy up your area for the next relay. I can shoot really slow and still not need to reset to many targets. Heck, shoot as slow or as fast as you like, it’s your two and half minutes of fun.

It’s not hard for me to learn something, thanks for sharing the SLED device.
SqHunter
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by SqHunter »

For what it is worth, I tried to set up a a timed rapid fire match at our club in AR as a way to introduce people to silhouette. My idea was to put a variety of targets out at the 200 m line. Shoot all 10 animals in one relay, set a medium fast timed pace. I thought it would be a hoot with ARs or 44mag pig guns so prevalent here.

I got the idea from something the Sheffield AL club used to do. They used 22 scale animals at 50 and 25 yds, set a fast timer, and the winner was the one who cleaned the rack but had the most ammo left. I think they allowed 30 rounds for 25 animals or something like that. The closer the range the faster the time required.

Whatever game you come up with, I will be in. Maybe we could try it out at Whittington this year.
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

SqHunter

Thanks for the input. There are so many ways to enjoy Silhouette but in this case the goal is not to invent a new game but simply make official NRA rule changes to allow the modern, scoped, AR platform rifle into HP Silhouette.

It will be one more category of Silhouette for you to outshoot me on. Look forward to seeing you guys in Raton again.
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Because I can’t leave well enough alone I submitted a second version for the Silhouette Committee to review:

3.1.2(D) Modern Sporting Rifle (AR10, AR15) - AR15 or AR10 type commercially produced or owner assembled from commercial parts,semi-automatic rifles fed from external removable magazines and
equipped with a functional safety. Magazines must be sized and commercially produced to hold no more than 20 rounds. The magazine may be loaded with no more than 5 rounds. During firing a magazine must be in the rifle and the chamber fed from the magazine during the course of fire. The Magazine may be used as a rest. The trigger must be safe from slam fires or multiple firing from a single pull of the trigger.

barrels - must be at least 16” in length, Muzzle devices are allowed. Muzzle devices designed to be a muzzle break or include a muzzle break in the design are not allowed. Suppressors are not allowed.

stocks - may be adjustable.

sights - Any. Scopes may not be offset and may not be
mounted more than 2” above the top of the receiver as measured
to the bottom of the scope’s tube.

Empty case ejection - cartridge cases shall not be permitted to
eject in a way that causes Competitors or spotters to be struck. Cartridge deflectors and
catchers are allowed and may be affixed to the rifle, they may not be used as a rest or support.

As I mentioned before, the Committee has already met for 2023, I’m assuming this topic is a long time from seeing any movement. I also have no idea or experience pertaining to what happens when a topic arrives before the committee. For sure nothing will happen this year, submitted Dec 30, 2022. Happy almost New Year.
CoolArrowMarksman
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by CoolArrowMarksman »

As an NRA/CMP High Power shooter the vast majority place the support hand on the handguard at the corner of the magwell, with various angles of holds.
And the vast majority of High Power shooters use a two stage 4 1/2 pound trigger, mostly Geissele.

Brass hitting you is an accepted way of life in this sport, but alot of people modify the bolt or springs in the bolt so that it kicks out at 1 o'clock.

I mention this crowd because catching CMP/NRA High Power shooters attention seems to me to be the first natural population to tap. They already know the standing offhand position as opposed to the casual AR crowd.

Side matches with AR 500 gongs sound like a good start to me.
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

Start spreading the word among your fellow shooters. If all goes well they will have an opportunity to enjoy a new sport with the AR and hone their Standing skills to a fine edge. I suspect you are correct that will be a great discipline to draw new silhouette shooters from.
thauglor
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by thauglor »

Not to be a Debbie downer, but how is getting some nra approval to some rule changes going to change participation? You don't need their permission to host a match of whatever type you want

It seems like it would be better to just have a side match for an AR or w/e platform and who cares about official nra status when only a few people are doing it. If you get a following then petition for rule changes and you will have more momentum because they will see that people are attending a match. In the end, it's all about the $. Show the nra you can bring in match fees and they will want their cut of the pie
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

I found the NRA to be very open to entertaining the rule change. Time will tell if my thought process has merit. I think it best to make something legal then open the doors to participate. The AR platform is the most popular rifle in America, it is popular with hunters, Highpower NRA / CMP competition and recreational shooters. It seems logical that it may be a sound choice to bring more shooters to the ranks of Highpower silhouette. Time will tell, a long time, based on the silhouette committees meeting schedule. In the end you may have a better approach, having a different idea doesn’t make one a Debbie downer. The fact that the topic has people thinking and conversing about it is a positive.
K Danz
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by K Danz »

I'm a bit late to the party here. But here's my 2 cents. Trying to make a MSR fit under the current definition of rules 3.1 or 3.1.1 would be an exercise in frustration. It would be much simpler to start from scratch. I agree with much of the original post from 375Short about what's allowed. .223 is gonna have to be the main cartridge allowed if you want a lot of participation. That's what most people have. Gonna be real frustrating on the 500 meter rams however. If they wanna knock over rams at 500, they can upgrade to a 6mm ARC or a 6.5 Grendel or even go to the AR10 platform. Or, just accept the losses. Also you're gonna have to require a brass deflector or catcher. That's just common courtesy to you fellow competitors. Caldwell makes a very inexpensive brass catcher that attaches to your picatinny rail under your scope and is easily removable. Catches the brass right at the ejection port.

Speaking for the AR10 platform, I don't see a lot of folks using that because typically those guns are extremely heavy. 40 shots holding that much weight isn't gonna be a picnic.
I did see some talk about straight wall cartridges in the AR15 platform as an alternative. That may be problematic in a few ways. Not enough velocity or ballistic coefficient to get out to 500 M with any accuracy. Too much power for 1/2 size targets from 40 to 100M. Even with a 350 Legend. Reduced loads, and the gun won't function. Adjustable gas blocks would help, but then you're asking Joe average AR15 guy to change out a gas block and add expense.
A way around some of these issues could be to shoot reduced distances. Chickens at 100 M. Pigs at 200, Turkeys at 300 and Rams at 385.
Most clubs have 1/2" chickens, but if it's the old AR400 steel, you'll still get craters at 100M. Maybe even at 200.
I do know from experience in 3 gun competition, at 100 yards, 3/8" thick AR550 steel will take typical (lead core only, no steel core) 223 bullet hits with no damage to the steel. Of course this may cause additional expense to upgrade targets for the clubs. Not exactly a cheap proposition.
But in conclusion, I'm all for it. Would love to see it happen to grow the sport. Just one more game to play.... :D
With all the experience represented in these forums and NASSA, I'm sure we can find something to make this work.
375Short
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Re: AR Modernization for growth

Post by 375Short »

FYI on “Brass Deflection” - the proposal submitted to the NRA Silhouette committee included verbiage addressing brass catching / deflection so not to hit other shooters. When I wrote it I had overlooked an already standing rule in the book. (What was submitted can be read earlier in this thread / post)

Current Rule:

9.3 Case Deflector - It shall be the competitor’s responsibility to see that ejected cases from either semi-automatic or bolt action rifles do not interfere with another shooter. An external case deflector is acceptable.

Apparently some wise sole much earlier in the process had the wisdom to see smacking your fellow competitor with brass best avoided.
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