30-30 rifle?

[375Short]

Mathematically about 1350 giving a little over 400 FPE. You know the rest of the story, load some in that neighborhood and give it a try. Adjust as Ram results, accuracy and recoil dictates. For the new readers or those new to silhouette please realize that as we discuss low recoil and mild loads, with just enough energy to get the job done, that at some place, at some time, on some rams, we may see a bunch of hit rams standing there grinning back at our teary eyes. Raton rams have proven to be fairly forgiving, it seems by reading others experience the Rams of the North East are a more stubborn lot. Probably the cold winters and short days.

I have tried 9gr of Herco with that bullet on Rams. About a 40% failure to fall on full footed set rams. A little too light. For what it’s worth I always test on full foot set rams. With the hope that I have a little safety margin when rams are set to Lever action rules. It’s always possible that they get set full footed during a match.

[H.Plummer]

Thank you, 375Short! Much appreciated!

[HR41mag]

Since we're on the subject...
Using a 173gr. gas checked cast bullet (Lyman #311041) BHN 22, what velocity will I need to knock down the rams?

I have used this bullet for the past couple of years. On pigs and turkeys, I use 18gr. A5744 which is running around 1630 fps. The rams I up it to 22gr. A5744 which is running around 1850. The only time I have rang rams, was a rainy day and everyone was having problems. At Ridgway this fall, I tested the turkey load on rams during practice and everyone I hit went down. My chicken load is 150gr gas check with 6gr. Titegroup going about 1050 fps. It is surprisingly accurate and really fun to shoot.

[H.Plummer]

Since we're on the subject...
Using a 173gr. gas checked cast bullet (Lyman #311041) BHN 22, what velocity will I need to knock down the rams?

I have used this bullet for the past couple of years. On pigs and turkeys, I use 18gr. A5744 which is running around 1630 fps. The rams I up it to 22gr. A5744 which is running around 1850. The only time I have rang rams, was a rainy day and everyone was having problems. At Ridgway this fall, I tested the turkey load on rams during practice and everyone I hit went down. My chicken load is 150gr gas check with 6gr. Titegroup going about 1050 fps. It is surprisingly accurate and really fun to shoot.

Thanks for that info. A5744 is the powder I plan to use.
Regarding recoil, the powder can make a difference too. I've found A5744 to give a push instead of a smack. Love the stuff!

[HR41mag]

Since we're on the subject...
Using a 173gr. gas checked cast bullet (Lyman #311041) BHN 22, what velocity will I need to knock down the rams?

I have used this bullet for the past couple of years. On pigs and turkeys, I use 18gr. A5744 which is running around 1630 fps. The rams I up it to 22gr. A5744 which is running around 1850. The only time I have rang rams, was a rainy day and everyone was having problems. At Ridgway this fall, I tested the turkey load on rams during practice and everyone I hit went down. My chicken load is 150gr gas check with 6gr. Titegroup going about 1050 fps. It is surprisingly accurate and really fun to shoot.

Thanks for that info. A5744 is the powder I plan to use.
Regarding recoil, the powder can make a difference too. I've found A5744 to give a push instead of a smack. Love the stuff!

I am shooting a 94 Winchester Canadian. It has a 26" octagon barrel which helps with recoil but the load isn't to bad. This has been an accurate load.

[375Short]

This conversation may have gotten off course from the original question but thats the way conversations go. Along with AA5744 being a good choice for these types of loads Shooters World Buffalo Rifle is its kissing cousin. I have also had good luck with Vectan Ba9 in the .357 mild cast loads. It produces very low extreme spreads witch equates to very little vertical stringing at 200 yards with heavy slow bullets. I discovered it during the great powder shortage. I have used 6.7gr of the BA9 with 180gr cast bullets for about 1110fps from a 24” barrel. Not a hint of pressure and an ES of 8fps over several 5 shot strings. The bad strings have gone 11 ES, not bad.

[PAndy]

ChuckD, a 20" Marlin can do the job for sure. But it will require a little more powder and recoil to get the same fps as a longer barrel.

Best advice on power requirements for 200m rams may come from experienced local shooters who are on the same ranges. If you want to go milder to reduce recoil, then you will have to ring some rams to find out where the trade offs are. As mentioned before here, some shooters will have more fun shooting a mild load that rings a ram now and then.

Best bang for the buck is a long barrel, a heavy cast bullet, and a faster burning powder such as 5744 or 4198.

For the math nerds, I feel strongly that momentum is a much better measure than ft lbs of energy. Look up the 'power factor' formula for action pistol shooting. For me, Ram bullets begin at 180 gr. With a 357, I use a 210 gr.
YMMV choose your trade offs. Be safe have fun.

[JohnHenry]

I installed a recoil reducer in the buttstock and a 1" recoil pad on my 30-30 Marlin Cowboy. I shoot 170g Sierras at the rams. For me the recoil is mild.
The mercury cylinder in the buttstock reduces the recoil 30%.

[375Short]

PAndy is on the money with momentum. Both fast and slow approaches work but the heavy slow bullet and cast bullet shooters are using momentum. The slow heavy bullet stays together on the target and uses its mass to push the target over. The fast bullets mathematically deliver a big energy payload but can’t transfer it all to the target because the bullet itself is also vaporizing as it makes contact only delivering a small amount of the energy it carried on paper. As we know both approaches work. Switching to HP silhouette the fast bullet has the advantage and is way more forgiving but we also know the BPCR shooters still knock the same targets down with big slow chunks of relatively heavy lead.

[edgehit]

I've shot both Marlin 336 and Winchesters of the 94 and 64 models. Here are the pros and cons of both.

All of the Winchesters I've adopted and tried at state and national matches were acceptably accurate. The straight stocks are a little thin and need a cheek pad fastened to provide some cheek weld. The forearm fastening is superior to the Marlin because it accounts for barrel expansion as it heats up. I've yet to have a Winchester demonstrate barrel walking but it can happen. The Winchester is tricky to disassemble and clean from the breech end. A trigger job is a bit more involved than Marlins. Parts are readily found. The post-64 Winchesters made by Olin have a crappy stamped steel shell lifter that'll let you down when loading from the magazine. A modern replacement made from sintered steel cures the problem for $85 if you can find the part on Ebay or Gunbroker. The shell spring door also tends to cut your finger or thumb. Some attention with a file and stone will smooth it out. Every 26" octagonal barrel Winchester shoots well. They're just muzzle heavy and that's easily sorted out with counterweight in the butt stock.

Marlins hold better due to the pistol grip and fuller stock dimensions. The early 1950's rifles have cut rifling and that's a plus, especially if you can find a 24" barrel. Inspect the bore before you buy with a borescope. The microgroove barrels can be acceptably accurate. But the rifling is delicate and cleaning from the muzzle with bad technique can ruin accuracy. They're easily taken down to clean with a rod from the breech. Trigger jobs are also easy. I read that you like the 20" guns so a Marlin's light weight isn't a concern. All of my Marlins suffered from barrel droop as they heated up. I had to bed the forearm and relieve the tension on the forearm cap by cutting back the fore end cap shoulder a bit to eliminate this problem.

You didn't mention shooting a Winchester 64. This may be your best compromise between the Marlin 336 and Winchester 94. I quickly shot my way to master class with a 64-A which is a post 1964 variant of the revered '64.

I hope this helps.

[TheBugFather]

375Short well said and on the money.

Edgehit, very complete comparison of the rifles, well done.

Dennis Ostler

[chickenhater]

A light load for the front 3 targets, using a 30-30 is the 110gr hornady round nose over 34gr of RL15... very light recoil. Accuracy is quite good, out of my 94 anyways.
The 150's will take rams reasonably well, but I can't say there's a noticeable difference in felt recoil over the 170's, so probably best not to skimp here.