Questions, Questions...

[BlauBear]

DWL, the 547 uses the same split receiver as the 504, something I consider a mistake. A 504 barrel to receiver socket is about 35% shallower than a 1712, resulting in a less rigid action assembly. Add the cut receiver and light barrel, and the 504 has a frustrating tendency to throw nice tight groups three rounds at a time, .5" apart. That is, out of a six shot clip you may get three shots in the same hole followed by three shots in another hole .5" away.

In my dreams, Remington adds a centimeter to that socket and threads in a Shilen (the 547 does use a Shilen) or Lilja barrel, but that won't happen because of the tooling changes it would require. Actually, fixing two of the three problems would probably do it, but the low production numbers can't justify it. Truly a shame, because it would make a world beater.

(Hmm, find someone to weld that cut shut then thread in the Anschutz barrel... Uh Oh - here comes Kitty..)

[BlauBear]

A final thought on the 504:
Some of the rigidity problems can be overcome by bedding more of the barrel than you normally would and replacing the too light factory barrel with something like an Anschutz or Lilja target contour. It is perplexing that a rank amateur like me is out here trying to solve design problems in an expensive rifle from Remington, but the process has been educational. I have a better understanding of why Anschutz does some of the things they do.

On Form:
I shoot the 504 well because the hours spent practicing with it taught me the subtle cues that said I was in the right position. Knowing this, I can reproduce some of those cues on the new rifle, or discover their new values.

1. Plant butt pad squarely shoulder.
2. Get bright, clear scope picture.
3. Position cheekbone resting on the comb. On the 504, the jawbone rested on the comb.
4. Position cheek resting against the side of the stock. This is important, because the temptation is to press and that will cause fatigue, so I just rest against the stock.
5. Cradle the butt against the chest because this seems to steady the rifle.

[dwl]

Thanks for the information, Blau, regarding the 547 and form. As for figuring things out independant of the designers, as an engineer I see it happen all the time. Most of those times, unfortunately, no one listens.

Remington apparently took to heart the criticisms regarding the 504 barrels. If they are really commited to producing a high quality .22 then they will persist in making the necessary improvements.

On the other hand, if Remington is run by the bean counters then they will cancel the program and call it "cutting the losses." How Remington handles this situation will tell much about the management and Remington's future.

dwl

Oh, Merry Christmas, Prospero Ano Nueve and any other holiday you prefer.

[jneihouse]

It is perplexing that a rank amateur like me is out here trying to solve design problems in an expensive rifle from Remington, but the process has been educational. I have a better understanding of why Anschutz does some of the things they do.

Not so perplexing.......You are a committee of one dedicated person....Remington is a committee of no telling how many people with diverse agendas....

Last kind words I'll have for you messing with that 504......

Kitty

[BlauBear]

Silhouette is an opportunity to tinker, plus study machine, mind, body and the interactions of all those, so it has everything. Comparing a near miss like the 504 to a benchmark like the 1712 is instructive, and since the 504 is already screwed up, tinkering with it can't hurt anything.

Picking up the 504 I tuned, after shooting the 1712 Evelio built, also served to really highlight form issues. My form with the 504 is automatic from all the time spent with it, and I was able to identify, modify and transfer many of those habits to the new gun. It will take a lot of practice to "set" them into reflex, but the opportunity to contrast the two has been hugely beneficial.

[steve b.]

Who did the bedding on that stock..?

[Jim Beckley]

My best guess is, as long as Remington has been in the business, they could make anything that they wanted! I know one of their engineers at one time was Wayne Leek, I never met him but he lived in Tucson. I have talked to a couple of people that knew him real well, at the time Reminton was owned by Dupont, Wayne used to complain that you can't tell a bunch of paint makers about guns! I don't know who owns Remington now, but how much different could it be? I remember a year or so ago they had an ad in an outdoor magazine claiming that the 597 was the most accurate .22 made, I thought that some folks in Germany might disagree with that!

[jneihouse]

Remington CAN build a high quality .22.....The 40X is a prime example....However, actually building a mass produced .22 that can compete with Anschutz seems to be beyond their comprehension. Remington and Kimber both had a shot a filling that slot but they did not seem to grasp what is required of a top flight rimfire and what such a gun can do in the hands of an accomplished shooter.

In their collective corporate eyes they seem to think that no one shoots a .22 rimfire past 50 yards and that an inch sized group at that range puts a rifle into the elite of its kind. Looks like an evaluation of rimfire ammo sales vs centerfire rifle ammo sales and even a casual glance at the world of rimfire competition would point the marketing departments in the right direction and would inspire them with a new set of goals for building a consumer product that goes beyond "rich, American walnut stocks and deep, lustrous bluing"........just my .02 worth.

Kitty

[BlauBear]

Who did the bedding on that stock..?

Steve, I bedded the 504 in question, but I have another one bedded by Evelio in a Nesika stock with a Lilja barrel and that one is comparable to a NIB 1712, though the 1712 has a better trigger. I've struggled with finding a consistent hold on the Nesika stock, so that one has never been in a competition.

My best guess is, as long as Remington has been in the business, they could make anything that they wanted! I know one of their engineers at one time was Wayne Leek, I never met him but he lived in Tucson. I have talked to a couple of people that knew him real well, at the time Reminton was owned by Dupont, Wayne used to complain that you can't tell a bunch of paint makers about guns! I don't know who owns Remington now, but how much different could it be? I remember a year or so ago they had an ad in an outdoor magazine claiming that the 597 was the most accurate .22 made, I thought that some folks in Germany might disagree with that!

Remington was recently purchased by the same investment outfit that bought Chrysler - Cerberus I think. Their business model is to buy distressed companies, clean them up, and then either re-sell them or spin them off, at a profit of course. Remington's new AR is from a sister company, can't remember which one, so it is not a true Remington design.

Anyone with much knowledge of .22's would qualify their claim with "in its price range", though there are some low end CZ's that might argue with even that much.

[steve b.]

I ask in that I see the action screw pattern is similar to a 54 Anschutz action, and I have had the best luck with floating the action behind the bolt handle slot on the action. I see that yours has a small area of bedding back there.

Have you played with different bedding styles at all on that rifle? I have not worked on that action yet, so I'm just curious.

Always looking for new tricks on rifle bedding.

Thanks,

s.

[dwl]

Hey Herr Blau;

Speaking of different bedding styles, how about a modified barrel block. For the 504 you could build a block to clamp onto the barrel AND the action, then screw the stock to the block. That should take care of all your problems, unless you order the block from BKL!

If'n your real nice Kitty could get it powder coated PINK to go with a CUBAN GREEN stock. There after Coates will supply you with some over stuffed, untied tennis shoes and a backwards ball cap.

I gotta admit, you Suthern Boys got style.

dwl
Just a dumb hick from
Cow Valley, UT

[Bob259]

Remington CAN build a high quality .22.....The 40X is a prime example....However, actually building a mass produced .22 that can compete with Anschutz seems to be beyond their comprehension. Remington and Kimber both had a shot a filling that slot but they did not seem to grasp what is required of a top flight rimfire and what such a gun can do in the hands of an accomplished shooter.

In their collective corporate eyes they seem to think that no one shoots a .22 rimfire past 50 yards and that an inch sized group at that range puts a rifle into the elite of its kind. Looks like an evaluation of rimfire ammo sales vs centerfire rifle ammo sales and even a casual glance at the world of rimfire competition would point the marketing departments in the right direction and would inspire them with a new set of goals for building a consumer product that goes beyond "rich, American walnut stocks and deep, lustrous bluing"........just my .02 worth.

Kitty

They did make another one also Kitty.... The 541. That was a great gun, it balanced well, had a crisp adjustable trigger and are now found at a premium price, if you can find a good used one. But before I'd pay that premium... I'd buy the Anschutz and be done with it.

It's not that they can't do it, it's just the bean counters telling the engineers they have to do it for less, for more profits for the execs. Now that they have taken over Marlin I expect their products to be 'cheapened' and follow the same path of destruction as well.

[jneihouse]

They did make another one also Kitty.... The 541.

You're right.....Have a really nice example of the 541T in my safe set up for squirrel hunting......The 540 series were nice too, had a 540XR at one point in time...Guess the marketing folks just have no faith in the American consumer's ability to discern a fine rimfire and his willingness to pay to own one.......

Kitty

[jneihouse]

f'n your real nice Kitty could get it powder coated PINK

JUST so happen to have the pink in stock, too.......

Kitty

[Jim Beckley]

If my memory hasn't failed me I think Tim Kurreck stuck a 541T on a McMillan stock and won one of his smallbore titles with it, and I have heard that Lee O'neill went through about 10 of them before he found one that would shoot the way he wanted. I have seen a couple of the 541S, the sporter version that would be lucky to hit a barn, standing next to it, but like anything else they will either shoot or they won't.