Definition of "Hunting" stock?

[Innocent]

Mt_Medic31,
First let me say the NRA competition department for silhouette has always been marignal. Good to some that are form what I can see 'personal friends' and others have to pull teeth to get answers or results. Jonathan at the NRA, the newer employee, does seem to respond to everyone a little more equally.

Secondly, Nomad is simply responding with his experience as a match director and as a tech/range officer assisting many times at various nationals.

While I understand where you are coming from on the money spending comments, really what he is pointing out is that the shape of the wooster/pharr stocks are accepted. THey are lighter weight than nearly all the other 'plastic' stocks out there and therefore help in the continous weight issue.
Perhaps you would want to check into some of the lighter wood for a stock that you can follow the shape of a Wooster or Pharr on, such as chestnut.

What Noamd is pointing out is watch the width and contour of the forearm, depth of the forearm at the trigger, and height and roll of the comb.

While I hear you on attending a national, some of the larger matches with moneatary prizes (scopes, rifles, etc..) can get a bit sticky on rules at times.

And as a comment the costs of the stocks that are Robertson/Wooster/Pharr based are primarily driven by the costs of 'environmental protection' rules, having been closely involved in plastics for over 40 years (boats and surf boards), I have seen many changes that have only been added to the consumers costs.

Good luck and have fun building your stock and I look forward to seeing you at a match, maybe CBC in April.

Mary

[Mt_Medic31]

Thank you Miss Mary (innocent), you have always been helpful and nice. You do NOT need to explain for anyone else. Those guys can stand for their own comments. By the way, what is CBC?

Yeah, I think I may buy the A2 stock, even though it may not fit spec, but I will alter it to fit. The big thing I want is that Bell and Carlson puts an Aluminum frame inside those stocks that runs from the middle of the fore-end all the way into the handle, making it MUCH stiffer.
** I considered cutting the stock to a skeleton, then building over it with carbon fiber. I family member of mine in California is very experienced in making aircraft wings/parts with carbon fiber cloth and resin. I think I may run the idea past him. The stuff's not very expensive, including the initial stock, I would be into it for less than $300.

Any such ideas or experience would be helpful.

[Jim T.]

MM-31

I hope what I have to say does not offend you as I do not intend to do so.

Assuming your request for feedback has room in it for alternatives, I propose the following.

An un-inletted Pharr stock can be had for a about what you are willing to spend on your "carbon fiber" creation. You appear to be handy around stocks. Why don't you buy an un-inletted Pharr stock and inlet it yourself? I would think this would take substantially less time than carving up the B&C stock and building it back up with your material of choice. Maybe more importantly, with a Pharr stock you will have an asset that you could dispose of in the future while your "carbon creation" may not have that quality?

When I got in this game I started with a Remington model 700 Varmint (only shot heavy rifle matches) and used it until I made sure I enjoyed the game and would stick with it. During this time, I looked around and talked to people about their ideas of what worked and what did not. I finally decided on a Pharr stocked, model 700 action and Lilja barrel. I could not be happier with my choices.

I don't think anyone in this thread has any intent to be "mean." Mary said in a diplomatic way what everyone else is saying in their own way. I am always amazed when someone comes on to a firearms forum, asks a question, and then gets opinions from an opinionated crowd. This is not a gardening or knitting site, we do have opinions and varying ways of expressing them. I assume you will learn how to filter them.

[Innocent]

CBC...Conard Bernhart Cup, always held last full weekend in April in Pe Ell Washington. A great match and lots of prizes, not to mention THE BEST TARGET SETTERS anywhere and great food.
I understand what you are looking for in strength, although the Wooster Pharr stocks are stronger than they appear. But then in my situation having a good case has helped in the flights, never had any serious damage to the rifles
but I am on my soon to be fourth Kalispell case.

Good luck on youor pursuit I'm sure you will have fun building what fits you and the end product is always satisfying.

Mary

[Innocent]

Medic...you may want to hold a newer Wooster, I think you will like the palm swell on it, and if I am correct he sells the stock for under $400. There should be some shooter in your neck of the woods with some of his stocks,
not too many east of the Mississippi river know what they feel like.

Mary

[Varn]

Medic. try this link. maybe its what you are looking for. . http://www.longrangehunting.com/gearsho ... stock.html. looks as much like a hunting stock as any of the others.

[nomad]

Mary/Varn

Thank you both -- your remarks are appreciated. However, as the man from MT said, I should probably personally stand up for my opinions and commentary. lol

MTMed

1. What I was saying is that the stocks already in existence are AT the limits. They were designed by people who are not only highly experienced in the game but they were designed to be as far in the direction of Standard as they could go and still pass as Hunters. 'Close' -- but on the far side of these designs -- won't cut it. Mark Pharr and Steve Wooster KNOW just how thick the ice has to be before they fall through...and where their stocks go ref the rules, it's so thin that you can hear it crack as you walk. What you're asking about is whether YOU can walk on half the thickness. The answer is no.

2. Posts like yours reappear regularly when newbies come forward and say: "I read the rulebook. Here's my interpretation. Surely I can use what "I've" decided makes the grade!"
Then they show up at a match and want to argue with folks like me -- who are doing the work of Match Director, Tech Inspector, Line Officer or whatever. Eventually, it gets old.

Tony was trying to tell you that your thinking was flawed. I just said it more directly. Tony's nicer than I am. (Ask anyone who knows us both!)

I promised myself that I wouldn't argue on the 'net long ago. This is my last post on this thread.

If you want to discuss this further, PM me and we can talk. We can even talk on the phone. I've run local, state, regional and national level silhouette competitions and at least a couple of the rules you're reading are in the book because I helped write them. If I can help you understand what will and won't work via personal communication, I'll be happy to work with you. If OTOH, you just want someone to approve your interpretations -- right or wrong -- I'm not the guy you need.

Finally, ALL of the shooting sports need new blood. What we DON'T need is someone who appears at his second match with the book in one hand, a rulebreaker in the other and a 'Prove that I can't use this!' attitude.

[Innocent]

Now Ernie...we all know you are a little more direct than Tony! But by the same token, you have been around a while in all capacities. Thanks for presenting your opinions, and yes some of us try to be a little more diplomatic than you at times...but at work I am a different person, just ask any of those poor B's that have to answer my persistent questions to get a real Root Cause Analysis, only I sit and ask the same question like a 2nd grader....WHY?

I recognize what MM31 is looking for, and what I don't think he realizes is that a Wooster stock, which as you put it pushes the limit of the rules is about the same price as what Varn and others have listed, if he is going to do his own inletting etc. and it already has a the weight issue dealt with. Some have an extremely hard time dealing with "lack of structure" in the pistol grip and forearm area of the W/P stocks, and I have just about decided not to fly with my Pharr stock anymore, due to the last case distruction which the rifle survived, although I am not sure how. Experience from all of us that have travelled, flying or driving, recognize the weaknesses of the plastic stocks, but have come to accept them and do what we can to protect those areas.

MM31...Ernie has a lot of knowledge, just an old mans way of expressing it, don't let him get under your skin, he really is very interesting to talk with and a lot of fun. Learning tl deal and listen to the egos and opinions of any of the great shooters (Wigger included) can be fun in itself. Maybe my noew motto should be Steve Windwoods...Roll With it Baby.

JimT...silhouette shooters are not The Most Opinionated group, but we do give it a run for the money, sorry I missed CO this year, see you in PeEll?

Mary

[Mt_Medic31]

To All,
Thanks for the time, and advice.

To Nomad and the like: I live in Mt, but raised southern boy, my family still lives outside New Orleans. I was taught to be polite and show respect until proven otherwise, and I do not take well to people being condescending, snide, or disrespectful when I come asking for help, and freely admit "I don't know". That said, this was a culmination of remarks on several of my threads, and I still say, Not impressed. Take a quick gander at the amount of posts when you answer, if it looks like a newbie, or admits to being a newbie, how bout being a lil more patient? Also, if someone shows up all cocky and know it all on their first post, by all means tear them up.

This Sunday I am taking a 15 year old with me to the local informal match, to teach him about the sport, and I expect him to be hooked. If he shows up on here I HOPE you all are good to him!

Nomad, I TRY to follow the rules, sold some of my guns to get a rifle for BOTH classes of smallbore, then go to a match where it looks like I'm one of the few that read the rule book. When I try to get clarification, I get lots of I don't knows, and passing the buck, EVEN AT THE NRA ITSELF!!??. PLUS, at the match I went to in Missoula, more than one person said in context like I'm some high dollar newcomer, "Not all of us can afford 2 rifles". Well theses same people had more money in their One gun than both of mine together. I don't know these things, so tell me then Mr. Referee, "alot of people get away with slight rule breakers at smaller matches, but that won't fly on national level." Got that from reading between the lines here, which could have been easier said in the prior sentence. Not trying to argue, just learn. I hope you understand my frustration.

**Having an opinion is fine, god knows I have mine, it's the presentation that needs work.

Anyway,
Pharr stocks don't really have any website sales or listing. The few places I did see them listed prices ranging from $400 to $1000. The Carbon fiber and resin stuff is cheap to work with from what the airplane guys tell me, and I hate inletting. I was going to spend 200 on the BC stock, route out the whole Cheek area, leaving only a frame to attach the carbon fiber, and do something similar to the fore-end. BUT, I would leave the internal aluminum frame alone for the strength around the action and bedding area. I would still come in under $300 easy. I don't have the proper inletting tools, but do have everything I need for gutting the areas to carbon fiber over.
Another option I'm looking at; I'm learning more about working with carbon fiber, and I may call B&C to see if I can buy just the aluminum internal support, then build my own stock from that. BUT, if it seems like 2 or 3x the work, I will stick with the original idea.

Innocent, I understand the flying thing, and have flown back to Louisiana to go hunting with family. I take my guns in Pelican or Hardigg Storm cases, and have not had a single problem with either the guns or the cases themselves. Plus I found a cheap place to get them, Manventureoutpost.com. I got my Pelican 1750 there for $165 plus shipping. They run out occasionally, but check back in a month or so and they usually re-appear. You can still find some Hardigg cases occasionally at Adoramacamera.com and Ebay, but otherwise they are hard to come by since Pelican bought them. The Pelican cases are definitely comparable, but the Hardigg cases had better hinges/clamps.

[Mt_Medic31]

VARN!!! You're the MAN!! That's exactly what I was looking for. Seems to be a cross between the A1&2, and I think I could just sand down some areas and get it to fit within spec. Thanks a ton!

[Jerry G]

Miss Mary? Wow, I have heard you called many things before but I don't recall that one. Keep your bare toes out of the swamp mud now that you are getting old.

I thought you were going to CO this fall.

Jerry

[nomad]

Mary,

I may not have intended to post again on this but that 'Old Man's' remark was unkind!
You might want to hope that your rifle is a LOT of ounces under the max allowable when I next see you at tech...

[Jim Beckley]

Jerry, Do you think that Mary wanted to see McAlice ring anymore rams? Even with a .22 it would have been painful, all that whining!

[Innocent]

All right boys!!! (is that better Nomad?) listening to McAlice whimper would beat some of the things I have been doing for the last few months, but anyway Nomad...no problems on the rifle weights, never have been, and the way the airline have been working on them will probably even be less of a threat.

Jerry...sorry I missed CO but I have spent a large part of the summer and early fall in Artesia, failing health on the old man ( and yes, Ernie, he is aging), I know the roads between Artesia and El Paso well enough to sleep drive them, and think I can find my way around EP better than parts of Florida now.

JB...where did the pink hat come from, too much 7-08 in St Louis wear you to a softy? (Had to throw that one in before McAlice did)

MM31, coon ass eh?, FYI I have seen some Pelican cases destroyed as well, and the firearms not survive. So far I have not had any serious damage to the rifles with my Kalispell and they are much lighter, and easier on the back to carry. Great that you are taking your son out, this extended family is always ready to adopt new young ones, and they have kept my son almost straight!! At 20 I think he will land on his feet eventually, wants he decides what he wants to do, he has learned how to deal with lots of people, and opinions, and has seen lots of ranges across the country, with many of the different cultures associated with the local flare. It is not cheap to pay for two shooters, especially when one is growing!! THat is the reason I help off from shooting High Power for so long, couldn't even come close to considering two of that expense. The pleasure of having the child beat you is unbelievable, but even Pat Steiger is getting used to it, now. Go with what you want, have fun working on the project, involve your son as well and it will be even more enjoyable.

Mary

[Jerry G]

We only had to tolerate McAlice one day. His wife gave him the orders the second day and he was gone. At least Bob didn't bitch about my spotting scope not going high enough like Jeff did.