Evelio - so you would suggest doing Bob's seating procedure and then add .005 - .010 to the COAL?

The other Bob

Remove the firing pin from your rifle bolt with a Kliendorst tool or something similiar for obvious saftey reasons and so that the seating can be felt, use a fresh loaded round each time when time so the enraving marks can be easly seen, your looking for 5 square rifleing marks on the bullet ogive and a slight resistance when closeing the bolt. Keep in mind that 700 magazines do not allow for a cartridge much over 2.80, anything over that will have to be single loaded.

[quote="kevinbear"]Bob, that runout gauge makes my rcbs casemaster look downright primitive! When loading for br it is the general accepted practice to push the bullets into lands far enough to get square scuff marks on the bullets there by insuring perfect bullet alignment with the bore. This of course is difficult to achieve if the necks are not concentric and fitted to the chamber besides the runout issue.[/quote]

Every gun has its likes and dislikes about hand loads. Only experimenting will tell you this. My only thoughts about jamming the lands, say in a match, is running out the clock with a loaded round in the chamber. I have seen many guns temporarily disabled with a action full of powder when the bullet sticks in the throat upon removal. It happens more than you think especially when that leade angle wears down to a long ramp .

Usually if a rifle is less accurate with the bullets seated into the lands it indicates that there is a problem with chamber alignment to the bore, in such a case the bullet would have a chance during the jump to align itself. Not seen much these days with quality control as good as it is.



[quote="Bob Mc Alice"]Every gun has its likes and dislikes about hand loads. Only experimenting will tell you this. My only thoughts about jamming the lands, say in a match, is running out the clock with a loaded round in the chamber. I have seen many guns temporarily disabled with a action full of powder when the bullet sticks in the throat upon removal. It happens more than you think especially when that leade angle wears down to a long ramp .[/quote]

Wow...what a string! One MOA is sufficient for silhouette but I prefer better. note that boat tails yaw until they're past 200 meters due to aerodynamic turbulence at the boat tail. accordingly a great group at 200 may not tr be so great at 300 or 385 or 500...do not expect any linearity in the results. Sierra's lab contends that the most accurate 7 mm is the MK 150 and the deadliest on game is the 140 GK. The 130 MK jacket is the 150's with a shorter core...I think its off balance and prone to yaw but arguments go the other way. I load 37 grs of XMR 4064 and 150's 168's and 175 MKs . They all shoot under 1 MOA at 500...i use 175's on the rams just because our rams are troublesome. An easy way to find the lands: push the particular bullet into the lands...the the cleaning rod down the muzzle..mark the rod at the contact with the bullet. Then remove the bullet...insert and close the bolt...run the same cleaning rod down the barrel and mark it at the contact with the bolt face. the distance between the two marks is your overall length at the lands...Always fireform with the projectile against the lands thus assuring full contact with the bolt face and proper forming. .....yikes...how did i get caught up in this string

i use 175's on the rams just because our rams are troublesome...... Ha Ha, I thought you would never admit that!!

Your here cause your a sucker for good HP conversation with some of your favorite people.

You have any 6.5 guys at your range? If it takes 175's in 7 for rams they must have LOTS of trouble with them!!
[quote="Snake"]Wow...what a string! One MOA is sufficient for silhouette but I prefer better. note that boat tails yaw until they're past 200 meters due to aerodynamic turbulence at the boat tail. accordingly a great group at 200 may not tr be so great at 300 or 385 or 500...do not expect any linearity in the results. Sierra's lab contends that the most accurate 7 mm is the MK 150 and the deadliest on game is the 140 GK. The 130 MK jacket is the 150's with a shorter core...I think its off balance and prone to yaw but arguments go the other way. I load 37 grs of XMR 4064 and 150's 168's and 175 MKs . They all shoot under 1 MOA at 500...i use 175's on the rams just because our rams are troublesome. An easy way to find the lands: push the particular bullet into the lands...the the cleaning rod down the muzzle..mark the rod at the contact with the bullet. Then remove the bullet...insert and close the bolt...run the same cleaning rod down the barrel and mark it at the contact with the bolt face. the distance between the two marks is your overall length at the lands...Always fireform with the projectile against the lands thus assuring full contact with the bolt face and proper forming. .....yikes...how did i get caught up in this string [/quote]

We actually have some 6.5 aficionados and even some 7 BR souls. When the wind comes from the north (like always it seems) DE RAMS don't want to fall. The 6.5s are just a little weaker and you can't use heavier bullets like 168 or 175 to defy the wind support. However McAlice shot a whole bank (10) with 150's ....just very unsuccessfully...and he's been sensitive about this topic ever since You know how them artsy fartsy types are! I even had to drive him down to the ram line to show him that they were mounted on pads and were easily pushed over....absent the wind That's how "ramma ramma ding ding" became his call sign

Kevin, that is a hell of a lot of typing for a one armed bandit!

Kevin, why are your quotes always screwed up? I can't figure it out.

Bugabob
Well it looks like you got quite a few good answers to your questions. All centerfire rifles are like women, not two of them alike. I would start your testing with the bullets not touching, and keep seating them out about .005 at the time, and no more than .010 into the lands, 3 to 5 shot groups at 300 meters should be able to tell you what the gun likes. During your testing, make sure that you use the same powder weight and same bullet all the time, I would use either the 120 gamekings or the 130 matchking, pick out the best group, and reload and shoot again to see if it repeats, probably Varget would be the first powder to start with. After you settle on a seating depth, then you can increase or decrease your load 1/2 grain at the time until it starts to shoot under 1 min. at 300 meters a 2" group should be more than adequate for Sil.
Working a load for ultimate accuracy could be very frustating, I know several serious benchrest competitors that will shoot 1,000 rounds before they find their pet load, and by then the barrel is just about shot out ( 6 PPC ) but don't worry about yours, it should be good for over 5,000 at the least.
Man I love this thread, none of the usual bullshit from the regulars, I guess they don't know enough about reloading.
Evelio.

Snake wrote: However McAlice shot a whole bank (10) with 150's ....just very unsuccessfully...and he's been sensitive about this topic ever since

This is absolutely not a true statement, I was using 130 grainers...

And another thing. The 150 MK is .090 longer than the 130 MK. I cant comment on the core lengths.

I'm telling you,a Pact professional, some 120's and 168's, a pound of Varget and Harrell measure, 50 primed cases, a Wilson seating die and 2 hours at the range and I"ll have load for him that the standard deviation in velocity is under 15fps.The accuracy will be as good as whatever the rifle/barrel /scope is capable of, which given the rifle were talking about could be outstanding.
Kb

Kevin, what are your thoughts about "nodes" that exist in rifle barrels? Call them harmonics if you will. By just going with the lowest SD across the chronograph isn't it possible that you are focusing in on a narrow node that could be very temp and velocity sensitive? I am asking this based off of what I have been focusing on with Dan Newberry's "OCW" load development. What are your thoughts on the OCW method?

I've done a lot of research on load development this past year and a half and the OCW method and theory makes the most sense to me. I used it to develop a load for my Savage LRP in 6.5 Creedmoor and within 18 rounds in one session I had a found a 1/2" node, and another session with 15 additional rounds I had refined that down to a sub 1/4" load with sub 1/2" loads 0.2gr above and 0.2gr below my optimal charge weight.

Benchresters around here call it the third harmonic, it's real but I have not found that it to sensitive to temp and velocity in practical terms.